ISRAEL: Most Hated Country in the World?

[Cort Haus]

The Welsh were driven out of England by the nasty furriners. However, they weren't dispersed, demonised, persecuted and exterminated.

Christianity and Islam have between them given Jews a very hard time. Some demoninations more than others, perhaps, but in the context of 1948 its as though the immediate history never happened for some people. Madagascar, anyone?

[Heresson]

Jews were happily persecuting other religions as well, whenever they could.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Heresson
Jews were happily persecuting other religions as well, whenever they could.

Give some notorious examples.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
The Welsh were driven out of England by the nasty furriners. However, they weren't dispersed, demonised, persecuted and exterminated.

Christianity and Islam have between them given Jews a very hard time. Some demoninations more than others, perhaps, but in the context of 1948 its as though the immediate history never happened for some people. Madagascar, anyone?

Yes, but did "giving them a very hard time" include taking a country from them? No, that was done around the time Christianity began, and long before Islam even existed. I don't see how those religions "owed" the Jews a country. We treated the Romany like crap for centuries, too, but we didn't carve them a country out of western India.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Give some notorious examples.

oh you havent heard Heresson go on about that before? He'll give you some semi legendary 6th c king, a converted arab of some kind, who burnt some O Christian villages, and will neatly overlook that some of the kings supporters were Monophysite Christians looking for revenge for O persecution in Byz, and blame it all on the Jews. He'll find some medieval court Jew who was an adviser to some muslim ruler who persecuted Christians. And then, if hes in the mood, he'll take on after Jewish Bolsheviks.

Cmon, this is a well ground axe.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok


Yes, but did "giving them a very hard time" include taking a country from them? No, that was done around the time Christianity began, and long before Islam even existed. I don't see how those religions "owed" the Jews a country. We treated the Romany like crap for centuries, too, but we didn't carve them a country out of western India.

Had they gone back to India, they would have found a country run by the people from whom they had sprung. Whatever differences there were, were differences they developed after they left. AFAIK they didnt WANT to go back.

Not analagous at all.

Heck, they didnt even know they came from India till Western linguists told them. No real historical connection compared to people praying for return from exile three times a day, always praying toward Jerusalem.

[SlowwHand]

All I know for sure is that if Israel thinks they can take overtake USA as most hated, HA! You ain't a pimple on our ass as far being top kick on that one, buddy. Sit back and watch how it's done.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok


And you're being facetious...I hope.

The Welsh have a country (sort of) by virtue of their living there uninterrupted for several thousand years,

There has never been a time in the last 2 thousand years when there were not SOME jews living in Israel.

There was no long period without significant Jewish cultural activity there. The modern system of vowelizing Hebrew, for example was developed in Tiberias in the 9th and 10th C CE.

The Lurianic Kabbbalah, the most important strain of mysticism in Judaism, was developed in Safed in the 16th century.

Nachmanides, one of the greatest rabbis and biblical commentators, exiled from Spain, went to Jerusalem in the 13th c, founded a synagogue, and continued his work.

[Odin]

After WW2 there was a sh*tload of ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe in order to make the boundaries of ethnic groups match the new post-war political boundaries. AFAIK there is little or no demand from Germans whose parents or grandparents were from East Prussia, Silesia, the Sudetenland; or Transylvania to have a "right of return." Were the post-WW2 ethnic cleanings morally acceptable? of course not, but Europeans have decided to let bygones be bygones. The Palestinians need to, like Eastern Europeans and Germans, accept the reality of the situation, Israel isn't going to go away, and they will probably never have a right of return. Make no mistake, I am not letting Israel off the hook for the BS they pulled, but Palestinians getting a right of return is about as likely as Germany getting East Prussia back.

[lord of the mark]

the whole phrase "owed a land" with its overtones of passivity, and expectation of a gift, is entirely contrary to the spirit of classical Zionism, which involved carving out farms and towns with Jewish labor, the deliberate and difficult creation of a new society. Pinsker called it "auto-emancipation" what the Jews would do FOR THEMSELVES. That is the heritage of the early settlements, of Rishon le Tzion, Petach Tikvah, etc.


Spend more time studying the history of Zionism and Israel and less time listening to your own musings.

Feh!

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Odin
After WW2 there was a sh*tload of ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe in order to make the boundaries of ethnic groups match the new post-war political boundaries. AFAIK there is little or no demand from Germans whose parents or grandparents were from East Prussia, Silesia, the Sudetenland; or Transylvania to have a "right of return."

You are overlooking a monumental difference: those displaced German families had a Germany to go to, wherein their language and culture are the norm and they were readily accepted as full and equal citizens.

Where, again, would you expect the persecuted and displaced Jews to go?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


oh you havent heard Heresson go on about that before? He'll give you some semi legendary 6th c king, a converted arab of some kind, who burnt some O Christian villages, and will neatly overlook that some of the kings supporters were Monophysite Christians looking for revenge for O persecution in Byz, and blame it all on the Jews. He'll find some medieval court Jew who was an adviser to some muslim ruler who persecuted Christians. And then, if hes in the mood, he'll take on after Jewish Bolsheviks.

Cmon, this is a well ground axe.

I actually hadn't read any of those posts before. I read barely 10% of the OT threads even when I'm checking in semi regularly.

Thanks for explaining his odd comment.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Straybow
Where, again, would you expect the persecuted and displaced Jews to go?

Wouldn't the historical evidence suggest America?

[Straybow]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
That argument is nothing but hypocrisy, because the Hebrews themselves took the land by conquest!

No, they bought land and built cities and farms for almost 50 years before WW1. In addition, Jews had been the largest single ethnic identity of inhabitants of Jerusalem for at least 100 years (possibly several centuries). Then Jews in Britain petitioned for Jewish self-governance in the Holy Land under the expectation of the eventual dissolution of Turkish rule which would mandate the establishment of new, independent states.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Originally posted by Straybow
Where, again, would you expect the persecuted and displaced Jews to go?

Wouldn't the historical evidence suggest America?

Not really. The Jews had an ethnic shelter in NYC. Average Americans were as antisemitic as Europeans. The US specifically lowered imigration quotas of Jews fleeing Germany in the early 1930s.