ISRAEL: Most Hated Country in the World?

[Kuciwalker]

I'm referring to the fact that we have just barely the second-largest population of Jews in the world (nearly half of them).

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Straybow
Average Americans were as antisemitic as Europeans. The US specifically lowered imigration quotas of Jews fleeing Germany in the early 1930s.

Americans were anti eastern european, irish, chinese etc, but all those people came here.

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Id be more than hppy if you looked them up on the internet. At least youd learn something that way, and id be spared the responsibility to be their teacher.

...

However you asked why the Jew are entitled to a state, while other RELIGIONS are not. Which suggests to me that you dont understand the whole question of the Jewish existence as a people, the relation of people and religion, which are key questions in the Jewish response to modernity, and the origins of Zionism.

Thats why I suggest you read a book. Im willing to debate people, but Im tired of teaching modern Jewish history 101.

Please take your sanctimony and shove it up your... You are just like every other Zealot I've spoken with about this. You have no intention of trying to educate me because to do that you'd end up with an opponent that knew you were picking and choosing facts out of your bum just the same as you claim others do...

Originally posted by lord of the mark


oh you havent heard Heresson go on about that before? He'll give you some semi legendary 6th c king, a converted arab of some kind, who burnt some O Christian villages, and will neatly overlook that some of the kings supporters were Monophysite Christians looking for revenge for O persecution in Byz, and blame it all on the Jews. He'll find some medieval court Jew who was an adviser to some muslim ruler who persecuted Christians. And then, if hes in the mood, he'll take on after Jewish Bolsheviks.

Cmon, this is a well ground axe.

It doesn't look as if you have any intention of admitting that Israel has it's share of faults. It doesn't look as if you have any intention of admitting Israel is anything but the golden, most glorious place on Earth.

Feel free to believe you are more versed in the history of the Jewish people, I don't know that it's made me any more money so I'm not sure why I should care.

The sense of entitlement comming from Israel is staggering. They have refused world opinion and logic to settle where they want to settle. They must own Jerusalem. to them there is no other solution. And since they play the "persecution" card every time mommy or daddy say no to ice cream, they pretty much are going to continue the current state of affairs for all time with people like you, that don't have the guts to see through the whining, supporting them.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying the Palestinians are any better. I am pretty much of the same camp as Sava - I think the entire situation is ridiculous. Few people, if any, have any pragmatic sense in the matter any more. There are almost nothing but zealots on both sides now and no one has any intention of dealing with the situation that exists, they simply want the other side to admit it's wrong. People are being elected to office on the strength of their bull-headedness! That's absurd! The whole situation has no business being real.

You mention earlier that had the Ottoman been a federated empire and they were offered a state under that they most likely would have agreed. Well, seeing how the Jewisn people were offered several states, many much nicer and further away from everyone that wants to kill them, and they refused (stating the need for Jerusalem) I think that your opinion is slightly jaded.

But don't you worry about blindly fighting... You go right ahead and remain holier than thou.

I know what you really are.

Tom P.

[Kidlicious]

padillah,

What is it with you always talking about people's sense of entitlement?

[Arrian]

Well, seeing how the Jewisn people were offered several states, many much nicer and further away from everyone that wants to kill them, and they refused (stating the need for Jerusalem)

Just out of curiousity, where were these nicer offers? You're not referring to Uganda or Madagascar are you?

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Madagascar? When was that offer made?

[Arrian]

It doesn't look as if you have any intention of admitting that Israel has it's share of faults. It doesn't look as if you have any intention of admitting Israel is anything but the golden, most glorious place on Earth.

To be fair to LotM, I've never seen him claim that.

He happens to be posting in a thread titled "Israel: most hated country in the world." There are many such threads here at 'poly. If one felt a connection to Israel (say, I dunno, if one were Jewish), one might get a tad defensive after a while.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Madagascar? When was that offer made?

Good point. 'twasn't an offer. IIRC, it was a early Nazi proposal, before they decided "nah, let's just kill them."

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Well you learn something new every day. That's the first I've heard of that.

[Arrian]

It may even be a legend. Lemme do some quick searching on it. My memory tells me I learned it in class somewhere... but memories aren't perfect.

Anyway, the only offer I can recall was Uganda... and I don't recall if anyone asked the Ugandans about it...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Ah, good, my memory doesn't suck. The Madagascar Plan, from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

The evacuation of European Jewry to the island of Madagascar was not a new concept. Henry Hamilton Beamish, Arnold Leese, Lord Moyne, and governments including the British, French, and Polish, had all contemplated the idea,[1] as did the German scholar Paul de Lagarde. Nazi Germany seized upon it, and in May 1940, in his Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East, Heinrich Himmler declared: "I hope that the concept of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of a large emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony."

Although some discussion of this plan had been brought forward from 1938 by other well-known Nazi ideologues, such as Julius Streicher, Hermann Göring, and Joachim von Ribbentrop, it was not until June 1940 that the plan was actually set in motion. Victory in France being imminent, it was clear that all French colonies would soon come under German control, and the Madagascar Plan could become reality. It was also felt that a potential peace treaty with Great Britain, which in a few weeks' time was about to experience German aerial bombardment in the Battle of Britain and whom the Germans fully expected to capitulate as quickly as the French, would put the British navy at Germany's disposal for use in the evacuation.

-Arrian

[padillah]

Originally posted by Arrian


Just out of curiousity, where were these nicer offers? You're not referring to Uganda or Madagascar are you?

-Arrian

Oh, I didn't realize Madagascar wasn't an offer. OK, well they had Uganda and I thought another (off the coast of Africa as well, but I can't remember well enough). But the offer isn't finally my point it's the refusal to appreciate the situation - the "forced" martyrdom, if you will.

Tom P.

[Arrian]

Madagascar is off the coast of Africa, so I'm thinking that's it.

So one offer - Uganda. Again, I do not recall anyone asking the Ugandans about it, so the situation would've been better than the current one how?

In any event, I don't completely disagree with you, but it helps if the facts are right...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

The British Uganda Program was a plan to give a portion of British East Africa to the Jewish people as a homeland.

The offer was first made by British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain to Theodore Herzl's Zionist group in 1903. He offered 5000 square miles of the Mau Plateau in what is today Kenya. The offer was a response to pogroms against the Jews in Russia, and it was hoped the area could be a refuge from persecution for the Jewish people.

The idea was brought to the Zionist Congress at its sixth meeting in 1903 meeting in Basel. There a fierce debate ensued. The African land was described as an "ante-chamber to the Holy Land", but other groups felt that accepting the offer would make it more difficult to establish a Jewish state in Palestine (the historical Land of Israel). Before the vote on the matter the Russian delegation stormed out in opposition. In the end the motion passed by 295 to 177 votes.

The next year a three man delegation was sent to inspect the plateau. Its high elevation gave it a temperate climate making it suitable for European settlement. However the observers found a dangerous land filled with lions and other creatures. Moreover it was populated by a large number of Maasai who did not seem at all amenable to an influx of Europeans.

After receiving this report the Congress decided in 1905 to politely decline the British offer. Some Jews viewed this as a mistake and the Jewish Territorialist Organization split with the explicit aim of establishing a Jewish state anywhere, not just in the Holy Land. A handful of Jews did move to Kenya, but most settled in the urban centres. Some of these families remain to this day.

Note that a community of native Ugandans, known now as the Abayudaya, decided around the 1920s to convert to Judaism.

The Uganda proposal was revived during the Second World War by Winston Churchill, but by this time Zionist organizations were firmly committed to settling in Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Uganda_Program

[padillah]

Originally posted by Kidicious
padillah,

What is it with you always talking about people's sense of entitlement?

I live in the U.S. and, unfortunatly, the welfare stqte has left several generations with a bogus sense of entitlement. There are people on welfare that I've heard complain because they couldn't get an HDTV until next month because they're check is too small.

It really gets to me.

Tom P.