ISRAEL: Most Hated Country in the World?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by LordShiva


@ China's.

Why do Brazil and Portugal hate us?

Because of aneeshm's Goa Inquisition thread


btw I'm dieing. I'm sick, my head, eyes, throat, stomach hurt and my nostrils turned into Amazon - wide rivers. I can not breathe. Sure, it's just a cold, but it's second time this winter and again right before an important exam. I have a latin colloquium tomorrow and it's the last day, I can not move it any further. If I survive till it's time, I will undoubtly fail. I can not think about latin grammar being sick. I think latin is revenge of Roman Empire on us, european barbarians, due to its fall.
Sallustius informed us that North Africans are in fact Persians and Armenians, btw

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

I suggest any good one volume history of the Jews, for a fuller discussion of this.

This presumes I'm uneducated in the history of Jews. Not necessarily so, I simply fail to understand their justification for being "owed a country".

Tom P.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by padillah


This presumes I'm uneducated in the history of Jews. Not necessarily so, I simply fail to understand their justification for being "owed a country".

Tom P.

anyone who doesnt understand that the Jews historically considered themselves a people and not just a religion, who isnt aware that many agnostics considered and consider themselves to be Jews, and are so considered by most Jews, etc is clearly not educated enough in Jewish history.

So if youre so educated, can you tell me who Achad Ha Am was, and what he thought of religion? Who were the Billuim? What was the Haskalah?

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I guess youre not familiar with Mormon views of Utah as Zion, are you? Or their failed resistance against the US? Or the fact that the US has always allowed mormons to migrate freely to Utah.

Umm, I am Mormon - so, yes I am familliar with all those things. And Utah is not Zion - that's to be established in Missorri (Branson IIRC)... so it looks like you're not familliar with it either.

Are you aware that never once has the Mormon church demanded Utah seccede from the union and form it's own country? So, again, why must the Jewish?

Tom P.

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


anyone who doesnt understand that the Jews historically considered themselves a people and not just a religion, who isnt aware that many agnostics considered and consider themselves to be Jews, and are so considered by most Jews, etc is clearly not educated enough in Jewish history.

So if youre so educated, can you tell me who Achad Ha Am was, and what he thought of religion? Who were the Billuim? What was the Haskalah?

I could just as easily look them up as know them (this is the internet after all) so that doesn't prove anything.

And NONE of this rambling has presented me with a definitive case for why they are "owed" a country.

You can try to impress me all you want, it still doesn't address my question.

Tom P.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by padillah


Umm, I am Mormon - so, yes I am familliar with all those things. And Utah is not Zion - that's to be established in Missorri (Branson IIRC)... so it looks like you're not familliar with it either.

Are you aware that never once has the Mormon church demanded Utah seccede from the union and form it's own country? So, again, why must the Jewish?

Tom P.

When the mormons first went to Utah, it wasnt even part of the US. After Guadelupe Hidalgo they realized they werent going to beat the forces of the US. They did pursue their own state within the US.

If the Ottoman empire had had a federal structure, and the Jews could have managed to get a "state" within that would have allowed for free immigration, I expect most would have accepted it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by padillah


I could just as easily look them up as know them (this is the internet after all) so that doesn't prove anything.

And NONE of this rambling has presented me with a definitive case for why they are "owed" a country.

You can try to impress me all you want, it still doesn't address my question.

Tom P.

Id be more than hppy if you looked them up on the internet. At least youd learn something that way, and id be spared the responsibility to be their teacher.

We've had tons of threads about whether and why the Jewish PEOPLE have a right to the land of Israel. I suggest you go look one up, if youre actually curious about my view, rather than looking to troll.

However you asked why the Jew are entitled to a state, while other RELIGIONS are not. Which suggests to me that you dont understand the whole question of the Jewish existence as a people, the relation of people and religion, which are key questions in the Jewish response to modernity, and the origins of Zionism.

Thats why I suggest you read a book. Im willing to debate people, but Im tired of teaching modern Jewish history 101.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Spiffor
@ Russia's image of itself

But we keep ketting told that Russia is a hellhole of corruption and dictatorship. How can people there have a positive image of their country when they are living in such misery?

Interestingly, Britain is held in higher regard in both Indonesia and Australia than it is in Britain. Seeing as the Australians see hating the 'Poms' as a national obligation, this is strange.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


But we keep ketting told that Russia is a hellhole of corruption and dictatorship. How can people there have a positive image of their country when they are living in such misery?

er cause the question was on a countrys influence on the world, not on the condition of its govt. I doubt many Russians today think of Russia as having a negative influence on the world, even if they dont like Putin.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
But we keep ketting told that Russia is a hellhole of corruption and dictatorship. How can people there have a positive image of their country when they are living in such misery?

It's expected that people will have a fairly good image of their own country. Especially Russians

But come on: only two percent of the polled Russians think their country has a negative influence in the world. Not any other country is so self-complacent, and only China (which is often accused of being rabidly nationalist) comes close

[muxec]

It's cause we hate the rest the least.

[Elok]

I can see that the Jewish people would want a state of their own, just like virtually every other people on Earth except the Romany. I don't see how they are "owed" a state by anyone (seeing as Rome, which took their last state, no longer exists), and they had no claim to that particular hunk of dirt AFAICT. They had a strong historical connection to it, and an emotional attachment, but that does not equal a right to the land. Emotions do not create legal rights. I assume here that Zionism has something to do with the hill of Zion specifically, and not just general "our people need land" sentiments.

Having said that, I would like to stress that I am in no way, shape or form siding with MOBIUS. My attitude towards Israel is pity overwhelmed by annoyance; it's terrible, but what the hell did they expect founding a country surrounded by xenophobic, fiercely territorial Arabs whose literary tradition for the past milennium or so is full of stock "thieving Jew" characters? Did none of them ever read a non-bowdlerized version of the Arabian Nights, or did they just not care?

[Heresson]

You're being racist

[Cort Haus]

But even the Welsh have a country. Sort of.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Heresson
You're being racist

And you're being facetious...I hope.

The Welsh have a country (sort of) by virtue of their living there uninterrupted for several thousand years, even if they have been under English rule for several centuries. If the Welsh had been driven out of Wales centuries ago, they would have no claim on Wales as such, though they might well feel entitled to a state of their own. They would have no more claim to Wales than to Montana.