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Canadians to get Leopard 2s?

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  • The only people I'd ban from the forum are MarkG and DanQ.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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    • I also like MTG.
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

      Comment


      • Actually I was thinking that folks like Ming could be a lot of fun in a completely unmoderated environment . He would probably need to use a DL though or there would probably be too much crap thrown his way. I know he could handle it but it probably wouldn't be any fun for him
        You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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        • Update:

          CTV News

          Cdn. troops to get new tanks in Afghanistan

          Updated Thu. Apr. 12 2007 10:12 PM ET

          CTV.ca News Staff

          In an effort to bolster resistance against Taliban forces in southern Afghanistan, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor announced a two-part plan that will provide soldiers with new tanks by this summer.

          O'Connor said the Canadian government will purchase 100 Leopard A6M tanks from the Netherlands, which will replace the 17 aging Leopard C2s currently being used.

          "Our Leopard One fleet is almost 30 years old and we are one of the last two countries in the world to use them," O'Connor said on Thursday during a press conference in Quebec City.

          The tanks are slated to arrive in Canada by the fall of 2007.

          As CTV first reported six months ago, Ottawa has also opted to buy second hand. The defence minister announced a new deal with Germany to lease 20 Leopard A6M tanks which will arrive in Afghanistan as early as summer 2007 to help strengthen efforts against an expected Taliban spring resurgence.

          "They'll be able to take on any tank in the world," O'Connor said later in an appearance on CTV's Mike Duffy Live.

          He said the new tanks will offer soldiers stronger firing capabilities, faster land speeds and more armour to protect against roadside bombs.

          RELATED:

          * Will the Taliban try to reclaim Kandahar?
          * Analysis: Modern tanks will not halt the Taliban
          * Atlantic Canada pays bloody price for mission

          "These tanks are going to have much heavier armour protection against mines. ... The engines are much more powerful so they can move a lot quicker across country -- perhaps twice as fast as the Leopard One," he said.

          The defence minister said the acquisition of the 100 tanks, the leasing of the 20 Leopard A6Ms, training and logistics support over five years will cost a total of $650 million.

          Chief of Defence Staff General Rick Hillier said the tanks are necessary in order for our troops to respond to the changing tactics of an adaptive enemy "who occasionally can have success -- as unfortunately they did this past week." Indeed, it was a bloody week for Canadians in Afghanistan, after eight soldiers were killed in attacks -- the most ever in a single week since the mission started in 2002.

          Critics

          O'Connor said on Mike Duffly Live that the announcement of more tanks doesn't mean the government is planning to extend the troop commitment in Afghanistan beyond Feb. 2009.

          "Two-thousand-and-nine still holds," said O'Connor, "and somewhere in 2008 the cabinet will have to discuss what we're doing, if anything, beyond that.

          "The tank purchase doesn't affect this."

          Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre said the purchase of the new equipment sends a "clear message that we will remain there after February 2009."

          On Mike Duffy Live, Coderre called the mission "noble, and we are supportive of that mission." But he added that Canada still is not doing enough in terms of aid, development and diplomacy.

          NDP defence critic Dawn Black said Canadians should be concerned over the "clear escalation" of our involvement in the war effort in Afghanistan.

          "It clearly shows an escalation of what the government's doing with this misguided mission in Afghanistan -- an escalation with tanks and an escalation in a loss of human lives," Black said on Mike Duffy Live.

          Some defence analysts are skeptical. "We're in an arms race now with the insurgents, and we're not winning," said Steven Staples, director of the Rideau Institute in Ottawa and author of "Missile Defence: Round 1."

          "The events of the last week show they're able to adjust their weaponry to overcome whatever armour we deploy."

          The 100 tanks purchased from the Netherlands are expected to arrive in Canada by late August or early September.

          "They have been well maintained because the Netherlands planned to sell them. They are in very good condition," O'Connor said.

          The tanks will be refurbished -- the work will be contracted out to a Canadian company -- and 20 of the upgraded tanks will be sent immediately to Afghanistan to replace the leased German Leopard A6M's.

          CTV's Paul Workman has reported on the incredible heat endured by personnel inside the aging Leopard tanks, which are not equipped with air conditioning.

          O'Connor confirmed today that both the leased German tanks and the 100 tanks purchased from the Netherlands will be equipped with air cooling systems.

          Spring offensive

          NATO is in the midst of Operation Achilles, a spring offensive meant to pre-empt an expected Taliban campaign. Insurgent attacks are typically stepped up after winter snows melt and mountain passes reopen, allowing militants to travel more freely.

          Six Canadians were killed and a seventh was seriously wounded on Sunday when a roadside bomb was detonated. Two more were killed on Wednesday by another roadside bomb.

          Eight NATO leaders met in Quebec City on Thursday to discuss how to better coordinate their efforts in Afghanistan.

          The U.S. has extended its presence in Afghanistan at least until the end of the summer, while Poland and Australia have committed more troops to southern areas of the country, which is believed to be enough to carry NATO forces through the hazardous summer months.

          For months, the U.S. and NATO have called on other member nations to make a greater contribution to the campaign.

          U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates repeated the call on Thursday, saying NATO commanders have asked for thousands of more police and Army trainers in Afghanistan.

          "NATO has asked for about 3,400 training positions, and quite frankly, we're having trouble," Gates said after meeting with O'Connor and other defence ministers from countries with troops in Afghanistan's southern region.

          O'Connor has also urged countries to remove caveats on their soldiers so they can participate in the heavy fighting in the south.

          The U.S., U.K. and Canada have handled most of the actual combat operations against the Taliban.

          On Mike Duffy Live, O'Connor denied earlier reports that Gates was also calling on Canada to ramp up its military commitment in Afghanistan.

          "He didn't bring that up in our meeting today," said O'Connor. "We had representation from eight countries today that are fighting in the south, and he didn't bring that up to us. So maybe in has somebody else in mind. ... We're really pulling our weight.

          With files from The Associated Press
          Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

          Comment


          • The purchase deals with most of the concerns I mentioned when the thread started:
            1) Canada should shop around to get the best deal possible;
            2) How would MBTs fit into the Forces long-term strategic approach (i.e. do the Forces really need the tanks); and
            3) Can Canada afford to buy these tanks.

            Now there were some people who claimed these comments were politically driven and that they knew better. Well so much for the Harper boy.

            DND says they talked to six nations and got offers from three of them. Holland presumably gave the best deal.

            Lonestar, what were you saying about my comment that Canada should check with the Dutch about a tank deal?

            The cost of the tank deal is inline with the $600 million already allocated to buy the mobile gun systems, an experimental vehicle not yet operational. So instead of 66 of these questionable vehicles, we get 80 proven tanks + 20 support tanks. So for about the same price, we get a much better deal (God help us if the Conservatives go ahead with buying the MGS white elephants).

            Are the Leopard II the best purchase for what the Forces need? I'm not convinced the the Leopard C2s are really breaking down and can't do the job, but sooner or later they would need replacing and the deal we got was affordable and can deliver results now, unlike the MGS.

            So, overall, finally and surprisingly, a good decision by the Conservatives. Will wonders never cease.
            Golfing since 67

            Comment


            • I've never seen such blatantly hilarious backpedalling in my life.

              You were wrong in chastising Harper. Get over it.
              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tingkai


                So, overall, finally and surprisingly, a good decision by the Conservatives. Will wonders never cease.

                Good to see people admit whern they are wrong.


                Sounds like they did pretty much everything that you said they should do and you probably jumped the gun in your criticism of them

                While I doubt this will happen, I actually think a stint of Conservative majority would show that they could govern reasonably and well.
                You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Flubber
                  Good to see people admit whern they are wrong.
                  The Conservatives' position apparently changed, not mine. I'm surprised they figured out their initial errors.
                  Golfing since 67

                  Comment


                  • So Asher still hasn't realized that Harper got to improve our relationship with America by greasing the palm of its militaro-industrial complex ?

                    But eh, as long as our boys get new equipment, that's just fine. After all, wasn't Adscam about saving Canada from the threat of separatism ?
                    In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Oncle Boris
                      So Asher still hasn't realized that Harper got to improve our relationship with America by greasing the palm of its militaro-industrial complex ?
                      When did we conquer the Netherlands?
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                      • Originally posted by Oncle Boris
                        So Asher still hasn't realized that Harper got to improve our relationship with America by greasing the palm of its militaro-industrial complex ?
                        WTF are you talking about?

                        The Conservatives' position apparently changed, not mine. I'm surprised they figured out their initial errors.
                        What a bunch of horse****. You were wrong to begin with. You didn't have all of the information, you made brash politically-motivated judgments, and now when you're unequivocally proven wrong you refuse to own up and admit you were wrong.

                        Grow a pair.
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Asher
                          WTF are you talking about?
                          Boeing got 8.8B$ worth of contracts, for which Airbus and the Russians were excluded.

                          Hello Asher.

                          EDIT: I was a bit too fast with the numbers. Lockheed is getting a 4.6B$ contract, while Boeing is getting 7.2B$.
                          Last edited by Fake Boris; April 17, 2007, 10:21.
                          In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

                          Comment


                          • Boeing builds tanks now eh?
                            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                            Comment


                            • Well it seems like the tanks were bought fairly.

                              The truth remains that Harper is being a ****ing crook over his buying of planes and helicopters.

                              Thank God - he made a fair expenditure on 650m$, but is gifting the Americans with 11.8B$ in contracts.
                              Last edited by Fake Boris; April 17, 2007, 10:32.
                              In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

                              Comment


                              • Gifting? Cool, we get a buncha money for nothing! Thanks guys!

                                -Arrian
                                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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