"Victory Is Not an Option"

[padillah]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
I see the USA war in Iraq as stepping on an ant-hill, if you continue there, you will not achieve victory, you will just get bitten, the only thing to do is get your foot out and let the thing rebuild itself.

I like that! Can I use it?

Tom P.

[DinoDoc]

It would amuse me greatly, yes.

[Barnabas]

Ok!

But if you make millions of dollars due to it, Ill sue youç

[Sirotnikov]

LOTM

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by VetLegion
I think the worst mistake US did was abandoning conscription. They'd never have sent an army of conscripts to Iraq. Funny how something that seemed a good idea not so long ago looks so disasterous now.

We sent them to Vietnam, why not here?

We sent National Guard troops...for multiple tours. That was kind of a backdoor draft. Heck, we even toyed with the idea of re-inducting soldiers who's enlistments were up.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
We sent National Guard troops...for multiple tours. That was kind of a backdoor draft.

No, it isn't. Do you even know what a draft is?

[padillah]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
LOTM

OK, I looked and looked and can't find this anywhere. What is it?
Last of the Mohicans?
Little orphans take medicine?
Lethargic Online Type Media?

What?

Tom P.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by padillah

Originally posted by lord of the mark
its not "double think". the fact that our invasion caused the mess does not logically imply that our staying their isnt necessary to keep it from getting worse.

Good, cause that's not what he's saying.

Its precisely what he's saying, as you could tell if you read the part I quoted.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by padillah

And thats true whether it was inevitable or (as many think) contingent.

A situation that exists cannot be contingent or innevitable.

Of course it can be. Given that China had low wages, reasonable infrastructure, and that it opened to world trade and investment, it was inevitable that it would grow rapidly. Givent that the US has run large deficits for the last 6 years, it was inevitable our national debt would grow. Given that there were elections in Italy a year ago, it was contingent which side would win. Given tensions in Paris, it was contingent whether police behavior in response to an incident would trigger riots.

Many folks believe that given the US invasion of Iraq, IF the aftermath had been handled differently (someone more competent than Bremer, less debaathification, more US troops, etc, etc) the situation now would not be the mess it is. In fact even GIVEN all those mistakes, if the insurgents had not gotten lucky and managed to destroy a major Shiite shrine one year ago, it would not have gotten this bad. Thats all I meant by being contingent. If you prefer a different word for that, thats fine with me. I was taking issue with Odoms use of the word inevitable, which you seem to have overlooked.

[Sirotnikov]

[q]

Originally posted by padillah
OK, I looked and looked and can't find this anywhere. What is it?
Last of the Mohicans?
Little orphans take medicine?
Lethargic Online Type Media?

What?

Tom P.

Lord of the Mark

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
[q]


Lord of the Mark

The correct response to that was 100-0. You walked into a big own goal.

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Its precisely what he's saying, as you could tell if you read the part I quoted.

1) We must continue the war to prevent the terrible aftermath that will occur if our forces are withdrawn soon. Reflect on the double-think of this formulation. We are now fighting to prevent what our invasion made inevitable!

What he's saying is we can't avoid being there since we invaded in the first place. The logical, even inevitable, conclusion of invading a place is to be there.

"Where ever you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonsai

We wouldn't be faced with the option of withdrawing our forces if we hadn't invaded and placed our forces there. Did the fact that if we went to Iraq, we'd be in Iraq slip past the entire war plannig board?

That is what he means by double-think. It's the logical corrilary of a catch-22. There's currently an add on the radio that embodies this very thing. A guy calls up his insurance company and asks if he is covered to have his appendix taken out. The lady replies that they only cover that if the apedix is 3.257 inces or smaller. The catch is you can't know if it's covered until you take it out and by then you've had the procedure so it doesn't matter if you're covered or not.

Tom P.

[padillah]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

A situation that exists cannot be contingent or innevitable.

Of course it can be.

No it can't. Only when there is uncertainty can there be contingency. A current state has no uncertainty. A current state need only be observed.

He is not talking about "what might have been", he's talking about what is.

If you prefer a different word for that, thats fine with me. I was taking issue with Odoms use of the word inevitable, which you seem to have overlooked.

As I posted before his use of "inevitable" was completely appropriate. That U.S. forces would be in Iraq after invading Iraq is a physical inevitibility. In fact there are several laws, both of nature and physics, that would be broken were this not the case. If you need more proof look up the definition of "invade".

We are now fighting to prevent what our invasion made inevitable!

The absolute unequivocal resolution to prevailing after an invasion is to have troops in the country you invaded.

If you go to the store, where are you? In the store! That is the inevitable conclusion of you prevailing in your trip. Now if you had gotten into an accident you would not have been at the store but that wasn't your plan, that is a contingency. Once you arive at the store, having an accident on your way to the store will no longer be a contingency. It will have been resolved.

Tom P.

[Chemical Ollie]

Told you so

[DinoDoc]

Told us what?