68 killed in terrorist attack on train

[Kontiki]

How many people die on a regular train trip in India? 40? 50?

[LordShiva]

0.51 accidents per million km

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Hindu Nationalists

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Surely you aren't implying India doesn't have a history of violence by the Hindu community against its Muslim population?

Originally posted by snoopy369
I'm implying I don't understand why they're blaming Muslims when Hindus seem like the obvious answer

I just don't understand what the point of Muslims killing Muslims would be. These are in theory the people the terrorists are trying to *help* ...

Link

Laden's associates may be behind train blasts
B Raman

February 21, 2007

It seems that while the majority of the 68 passengers killed in the explosions-***-fire in two coaches of the Samjhauta Express at Deewana, near Panipat, on February 18 were Pakistani nationals, more Hindus than Muslims were killed.

This fact emerges from a scrutiny of the proceedings in the Pakistan National Assembly relating to the carnage.
According to a statement made by Pakistan's Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Khusro Bakhtiar in the National Assembly on February 20, the identities of 49 of the 68 persons, who perished in the fire, have been established so far, Twenty-seven of them were Hindus and only 22 were Muslims.

The Pakistani authorities have released to their media the identifying particulars of 13 Muslims who perished. All of them were Mohajirs -- eight from Karachi and five from Hyderabad, Sindh. They have not so far released the identifying particulars of the Hindus who died. It would seem that in the affected coaches, many Pakistani Hindus were returning home to Sindh after visiting relatives in India.

The Pakistani authorities have also released the identifying particulars of 10 passengers, who survived, but are undergoing treatment for burn injuries in a Delhi hospital. Of these, five are from Pakistani Punjab, three are Mohajirs from Karachi and two from elsewhere. Of the five from Punjab, two are Hindu residents of Sialkot.

However, Marianna Baabar, the well-known Pakistani journalist, has stated as follows in an article in The News of February 20: 'Pakistan has announced that Indian officials have informed the Pakistan authorities that out of the 68 victims, 49 have been identified among which 22 belonged to Pakistan and 27 were from India.' She has not identified the victims by religion.

In addition to other aspects, the investigating officers should also look into the following: Were the Hindus, who perished, from Sindh? Were they and the Mohajirs, who died, travelling in a group? Were they the specific targets of the explosions? Apart from targeting the peace process, was this also an attempt to prevent Hindu residents of Sindh from returning to their homes and to prevent their relatives in India from visiting them in Sindh? Was the Laskar-e-Jhangvi, an anti-Shia Sunni extremist organisation, involved? The Mohajir Qaumi Movement of Altaf Hussain, which is part of the ruling coalition in Sindh, has been strongly opposed to the LEJ. The LEJ retaliated in Karachi last April last year with a blast that killed all the Barelvi leaders of the Sunni Tehreek, many of whom were Mohajirs from India.

Recently, the LEJ has stepped up its activities in Pakistan and its involvement has been suspected by the Pakistani authorities in many recent terror attacks. It specialises in suicide terrorism. It does not have much expertise in timed or remote-controlled explosions -- at least not to the same extent as the Lashkar-e-Tayiba. The majority of the Shias killed by the LEJ in Sindh since 2001, were doctors, who or whose parents migrated from India.

The LEJ, which is a member of Osama bin Laden's International Islamic Front, has not so far operated in India.

[DaShi]

Re: 68 killed in terrorist attack on train

Originally posted by aneeshm
I don't understand why we don't take a ruthless stand towards terrorists. We still don't know what will happen to Afzal (the guy who tried to attack out Parliament), thanks to the the vote-bank politics of the current government. They may even recommend to the President that he be pardoned, in spite of the court's deaths sentence.

I thought India was a pacifist nation, preaching tolerance, patience, and understanding. Turn the other cheek and all that rot.

[aneeshm]

Re: Re: 68 killed in terrorist attack on train

Originally posted by DaShi


I thought India was a pacifist nation, preaching tolerance, patience, and understanding. Turn the other cheek and all that rot.

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
-Thomas Mann



This is a HUGE misconception. India has historically had no problem with being ruthless towards evil. Ever read any of our epics? They're full of the good guys killing the bad.

A picture is worth a thousand words, so let me regale you with the equivalent of two thousand words.

The story of Hiranyikashipu is worth narrating, if only to show that our Gods don't mind killing evil people.

Story of Hiranyakashipu

The story of Hiranyakashipu happens in three parts. The first has to do with the curse of the Four Kumaras on the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha, Jaya and Vijaya, which causes them to be born as the asuras Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashipu. The second part deals with Hiranyaksha's penance to propitiate Brahma and gain a boon from him. The final part deals with his efforts to kill his son Prahlada (a devotee of Vishnu) and his subsequent death at the hands of Narasimha.

Jaya and Vijaya

According to a story from Bhagavata Purana, The Four Kumaras, Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat Kumara who are the sons of Brahma (born from the mind or though power of Brahma), visit Vaikuntha - the abode of Vishnu, to see Him. Due to the strength of their tapas, the four Kumaras appear to be mere children, though they are of great age. Jaya and Vijaya, the gate keepers of the Vaikuntha arrogantly stop the Kumaras at the gate, thinking them to be children. They also tell the Kumaras that Sri Vishnu is resting and that they cannot see Him now. The Kumaras grow angry at the gate keepers. They tell Jaya and Vijaya that Vishnu is available for his devotees any time. They lay a curse to Jaya and Vijaya that they would have to give up their divinity, be born on Earth, and live like normal human beings. Vishnu appears before them and His gatekeepers ask Him to lift the curse of the Kumaras. Vishnu says that the curse of Kumaras cannot be taken back. Instead, he gives Jaya and Vijaya two options. The first option is to take seven births on Earth as a devotee of Vishnu, while the second is to take three births as His enemy. After serving either of these sentences, they can re-attain their stature at Vaikuntha and be with Him permanently. Jaya and Vijaya cannot bear the thought of staying away from Vishnu for seven lives. As a result, they choose to be born three times on Earth even though it would have to be as enemies of Vishnu.

In the first life they were born as Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha. Vishnu takes the avatar of Varaha to kill Hiranyaksha, and the Narasimha avatar to kill Hiranyakasipu. In the second life, they were born as Ravana and Kumbhakarna during Sri Vishnu's Rama avatar as depicted in the great Hindu epic Ramayana. Finally, in their third life, they were born as Sishupala and Kamsa during the Sri Krishna avatar of Vishnu.

Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha were born to Diti (daughter of Daksha Prajapathi) and Sage Kashyapa. It is said that asuras were born to them as a result of their union at the time of sunset, which was said to be an inauspicious time for such a deed.

Penance

After his brother's death at the hands of the Varaha avatar of Vishnu, Hiranyaksha's brother Hiranyakashipu, started to abhor Lord Vishnu and His followers. To which end he decides to attempt to kill Vishnu by gaining mystical powers, which he believes Brahma, the chief among the devas will award to him if he undergoes many years of great austerity and penance. This initially seems to work as planned with Brahma becoming pleased by Hiranyakashipu's austerities.[1] Brahma thus appears before Hiranyakashipu and offers him a boon that he will personally make true anything he wishes for. In reply to which Hiranyakashipu requests the following:

O my lord, O best of the givers of benediction, if you will kindly grant me the benediction I desire, please let me not meet death from any of the living entities created by you. Grant me that I not die within any residence or outside any residence, during the daytime or at night, nor on the ground or in the sky. Grant me that my death not be brought by any being other than those created by you, nor by any weapon, nor by any human being or animal. Grant me that I not meet death from any entity, living or nonliving. Grant me, further, that I not be killed by any demigod or demon or by any great snake from the lower planets. Since no one can kill you in the battlefield, you have no competitor. Therefore, grant me the benediction that I too may have no rival. Give me sole lordship over all the living entities and presiding deities, and give me all the glories obtained by that position. Furthermore, give me all the mystic powers attained by long austerities and the practice of yoga, for these cannot be lost at any time.[2]

Prahlada and Narasimha

Whilst Hiranyakashipu had been performing the penance to be granted this boon, his home had been attacked by Indra and the other devas[3], seizing the opportunity in his absence. At this point the divine sage, Narada intervened in order to protect Hiranyakashipu's wife, Leelavathi, who he describes as 'sinless'. [4] Following this event Narada takes Leelavathi into his care and while under the guidance of Narada, her unborn child (Hiranyakashipu's son) Prahlada, became affected by the transcendental instructions of the sage even at such a young stage of development. Thus, Prahlada when later growing as a child began to show symptoms of this earlier training by Narada, gradually becoming recognised as a devoted follower of Vishnu, much to his father's disappointment.[5]

Hiranyakashipu eventually becomes so angry and upset at his son's devotion to Vishnu (who he sees as his mortal enemy) that he decides he must kill him[6] but each time he to attempts to kill the boy, Prahlada is protected by Vishnu's mystical power. When asked, Prahlada refuses to acknowledge his father as the supreme lord of the universe and claims that Vishnu is all-pervading and omnipresent. To which Hiranyakashipu points to a nearby pillar and asks if 'his Vishnu' is in it:

"O most unfortunate Prahlada, you have always described a supreme being other than me, a supreme being who is above everything, who is the controller of everyone, and who is all-pervading. But where is He? If He is everywhere, then why is He not present before me in this pillar?"[7]

Prahlada then answers, He was, He is and He will be. In an alternate version of the story, Prahlada answers He is in pillars, and he is in the least twig. Hiranyakashipu, unable to control his anger, smashes the pillar with his mace, and then following a tumultuous sound, Vishnu in the form of Narasimha appears from it and in defence of Prahlada moves to attack his father. In order to kill Hiranyakashipu and not upset the boon given by Brahma, the form of Narasimha was chosen. Hiranyakashipu could not be killed by human, deva or animal, Narasimha is neither one of these, as he is a form of Vishnu incarnate as a part-human, part-animal. He comes upon Hiranyakashipu at twilight (when it is neither day nor night) on the threshold of a courtyard (neither indoors nor out), and puts the demon on his lap (neither earth nor space). Using his nails (neither animate nor inanimate) as weapons, he disembowels and kills the demon.[8]

Even after killing Hiranyakashipu none of the present demigods were able to calm Narasimha's fury, not even Shiva. So all the gods and goddesses called His consort, the goddess Lakshmi, but she was also unable to do so. Then, at the request of Brahma, Prahlada was presented to Narasimha, and finally, he was calmed by the prayers of his devotee.[9]

Narasimha appearing from the pillar, and being attacked by the demon Hiranyakashipu:



The disembowelment of Hiranyakashipu

[DaShi]

Re: Re: Re: 68 killed in terrorist attack on train

Originally posted by aneeshm


"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
-Thomas Mann



This is a HUGE misconception. India has historically had no problem with being ruthless towards evil. Ever read any of our epics? They're full of the good guys killing the bad.

Define good and evil.

The story of Hiranyikashipu is worth narrating, if only to show that our Gods don't mind killing evil people.

So you think you're a god now.

[DaShi]

And I take it that they guy with the snakes coming out of his back disembowling someone is the good guy?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by DaShi
And I take it that they guy with the snakes coming out of his back disembowling someone is the good guy?

Yes, he is.

And that "someone" is a guy who, through penance, gained all sorts of powers, and then started misusing them to oppress the three worlds. He repeatedly tried to kill his son, even tried to burn him and fry him in boiling oil, but every time God intervened and saved the child. Finally, God had to incarnate as half-man, half-lion to kill this "someone".

[aneeshm]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 68 killed in terrorist attack on train

Originally posted by DaShi

So you think you're a god now.

*sigh*

It's difficult to converse with someone with such a different idea of God.

The reason that God incarnates as an avatar is either to fix something that has gone terribly wrong, or to provide an example to humans how to behave, or both. Rama and Krishna are examples of this. The Narasimha avatar incarnated simply to kill Hiranyakashipu, to fix the problems he had caused, with no other purpose.

[MRT144]

Those illustrations are ridiculous.

[DRoseDARs]

And I would think the disembowelment one would be rather inappropriate for a "family site" especially if sexually suggestive avatars are frowned upon.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by MRT144
Those illustrations are ridiculous.

What's ridiculous about them?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
And I would think the disembowelment one would be rather inappropriate for a "family site" especially if sexually suggestive avatars are frowned upon.

It's religious art. If you can have naked men and women painted by famous renaissance artists, I don't see the problem with what I've posted. And anyway, you of the West are more obsessed with stopping people from seeing anything sexual than anything violent. Disembowelment is fine, but a nipple is not.

[MRT144]

lion snake 4 armed dude? cmon! thats just silly! the disembowelment one is disembowelment!

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by MRT144
lion snake 4 armed dude? cmon! thats just silly! the disembowelment one is disembowelment!

I fail to see the ridiculous aspect in any of that.