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Multiculturalism - a racism in disguise

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Cort Haus
    Hence, blaming the locals, rather than divisive, identitarian policies, is mis-placed.


    Those ideas don't come about for no reason, but are the product of oppression. People feel the need for identity politics because they feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are excluded from society in general. People feel they need a safe space to get away from oppression. Reality precedes ideology.

    England may not be as racist as the continent, but is rather a bit more racist than the U.S.

    There are now more Muslims in the United States than Jews. Certain areas like Michigan and North Jersey have very high concentrations of Muslim immigrants.

    We aren't seeing the same problems Europe is.
    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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    • #62
      Originally posted by chegitz guevara
      The problem isn't radical Muslims emigrating to Europe. The problem is, once there, Muslims don't feel included in your societies. Extremism isn't something people just pick up. It would be much easier for me to recruit people to socialism if it were so. It is a response, instead, to the inclusivity or exclusivity of a society.
      Dear, You are speaking of them as if they were tabulae rasae before getting to Europe. They are not. Some are coming to Europe with complete lack of info about it, and are apalled by its "freedom". Some already know western decadence and hate it. Some like it, but only in certain aspects, and some like it entirely.
      Most, I guess, do not care as long as they earn money...
      until they have children of their own who are supposed to grow up in such society.

      Muslims in America are not result of imigration, but largely black people conversion. And these black people often hardly knew what islam is when they were converting... anyway, it's a big difference. Especially that for many islam was a means of stressing their racial difference.

      Muslims coming to Europe are largely coming from nations hostile or resentful towards it, that's important as well.

      And the problem sometimes is radical muslims imigrating to Europe. That's what secular arabic regimes are often complaining about - Europe often shelters political dissidents who are not all that nicy and goody. And they continue their agenda there.
      "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
      I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
      Middle East!

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Heresson
        And the problem sometimes is radical muslims imigrating to Europe.
        They are a tiny minority, and their ideas would not take root if there was not fertile ground for them to grow in. Exclusion makes for good fertilizer.
        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

        Comment


        • #64
          The problem with blaming it on radical Muslims immigrating and taking their radical views from their homeland is in Europe it appears the next generation has their own elements of radicalism. Percieved exclusion is a powerful reason for radicalism to flourish among these groups (the France riots being a very good example of this).
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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          • #65
            I don`t think anyone is disputing that feeling excluded is conducive to extremism. What´s debatable is whether "multiculturalism", ethnic rights, etc, is likely to ameliorate feelings of exclusion.
            Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

            It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
            The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Last Conformist
              I don`t think anyone is disputing that feeling excluded is conducive to extremism. What´s debatable is whether "multiculturalism", ethnic rights, etc, is likely to ameliorate feelings of exclusion.
              Now we get to an intelligent point. I would argue that the answer is yes and no. If multiculturalism is meant to akin to a tossed salad, where everything together makes the whole better, then yes. If, however, it's meant that all the items in the salad are served separately, then I would argue no.

              In the rush to integrate, valuable aspects of our cultures may be lost that we'd have liked to keep. But staying segregated is bad for everyone.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Last Conformist
                I don`t think anyone is disputing that feeling excluded is conducive to extremism. What´s debatable is whether "multiculturalism", ethnic rights, etc, is likely to ameliorate feelings of exclusion.
                Then the question is what will ameliorate those feelings and why has the US done right while some European countries done wrong?

                When I was a kid, I was a part of a Muslim society (parents being Muslim and all), all the folks very integrated into American life. I don't think anyone felt excluded in the slightest.
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                  The problem isn't radical Muslims emigrating to Europe. The problem is, once there, Muslims don't feel included in your societies. Extremism isn't something people just pick up. It would be much easier for me to recruit people to socialism if it were so. It is a response, instead, to the inclusivity or exclusivity of a society.

                  America is a realtively inclusive society. Those groups who we are not as inclusive of, Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans, are also where we see much more radicalization and extremist ideology.

                  Arabs, Turks, and South Asians have never been made to feel welcome in Europe, despite your "attempts" at multiculturalism. It is hardly any wonder that they then join transformative movements and seek solace among those that tell them they are the true people.
                  Translation: It's all whitey's fault.
                  ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                  ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                    Then the question is what will ameliorate those feelings and why has the US done right while some European countries done wrong?
                    I think it has to do with the fact that we are an immigrant society. Everyone here except for a tiny minority has ancestors from abroad. In Europe, even countries with lots of immigrants, you always "know" that this is the country of a specific group of people tied to a particular piece of land, whose ancestors who been tied to that land for generations immemorial. England is the country of the English. Germany is the country of the Germans. Etc. Even if you get citizenship, you'll never be English or German. In an immigrant country like the U.S. or Argentina or Israel, if you get citizenship, you're an American or Argentinian or Israeli. You become part of the group.
                    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Caligastia


                      Translation: It's all whiteys fault.
                      I make one exception for anti-immigrantism. Go the **** back to New Zealand! We don't want your kind here ith your flightless birds and fuzzy fruit!
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        New Zealand rocks. Caligasta doesn't. Don't do that to them, Che.

                        As for the rest... trickey stuff. On the one hand, being tolerant and inclusive is good. On the other, tolerating intolerance is problematic.

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                          In the rush to integrate, valuable aspects of our cultures may be lost that we'd have liked to keep. But staying segregated is bad for everyone.
                          Why not just let people choose whether or not they want to segregate? Of course, that wouldn't be in line with your busybody totalitarian ideals.
                          ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                          ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by chegitz guevara


                            I think it has to do with the fact that we are an immigrant society. Everyone here except for a tiny minority has ancestors from abroad. In Europe, even countries with lots of immigrants, you always "know" that this is the country of a specific group of people tied to a particular piece of land, whose ancestors who been tied to that land for generations immemorial. England is the country of the English. Germany is the country of the Germans. Etc. Even if you get citizenship, you'll never be English or German. In an immigrant country like the U.S. or Argentina or Israel, if you get citizenship, you're an American or Argentinian or Israeli. You become part of the group.
                            Finland is the single commonest country-of-origin of immigrants in Sweden, and they´ll be Finns till they die, yet they´re the definition of a non-problem.

                            Also, Yugoslav Muslims tend to have less trouble fitting in than do Arab ones, yet they´re no more likely to be accepted as "real" Swedes.

                            Thus, I don´t think ethnic exclusivity is at the heart of the problem.
                            Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

                            It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
                            The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                              Originally posted by Cort Haus
                              Hence, blaming the locals, rather than divisive, identitarian policies, is mis-placed.


                              Those ideas don't come about for no reason, but are the product of oppression. People feel the need for identity politics because they feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are excluded from society in general. People feel they need a safe space to get away from oppression. Reality precedes ideology.

                              England may not be as racist as the continent, but is rather a bit more racist than the U.S.

                              There are now more Muslims in the United States than Jews. Certain areas like Michigan and North Jersey have very high concentrations of Muslim immigrants.

                              We aren't seeing the same problems Europe is.
                              If we accept the 7/8/10M figure that is still just 2-3% of the population, far below that in certain countries in Europe. Would you grant that it is vastly less difficult task to assimilate fewer individuals?

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                                Arabs, Turks, and South Asians have never been made to feel welcome in Europe, despite your "attempts" at multiculturalism.
                                Yet it's only the arabs that are resorting to terrorism.

                                Speaking for Holland:
                                It's basically among the Maroccans that we find anything resembling 'jihadists'.
                                I have yet to hear about one Turk who was arrested in a terrorism case. Turks might find it difficult here, but they start their own business and don't whine. Among the Asians we haven't had any problems that I can recall.
                                "post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
                                "I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller

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