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Multiculturalism - a racism in disguise

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  • #16

    30/01/07 | INDIA Christian prayer meeting attacked

    Believers hospitalised, Bihar town tense. Full Story...

    Tension gripped a Bihar town after a Christian prayer meeting was attacked by suspected Bajrang Dal activists, injuring several people.

    According to police, a group of armed men attacked the 28 January meeting at a Christian mission in Sasaram in Rohtas district, 200 km from Patna.

    They beat up believers, tore down posters and burnt books and leaflets.

    The injured were immediately admitted to hospital.

    Complaints have been filed against nine Bajrang Dal activists.

    Witness said that about 40 masked men attacked the prayer meeting and warned believers against holding similar weekly meetings, according to K K Sharma, Deputy Superintendent of Police (Sasaram).

    "The attackers shouted slogans against the conversion of Hindus to Christianity," he added.

    Bajrang Dal leaders in the district were apparently unhappy over the mission converting many Dalits. In the last two months, nearly 50 Dalit families have reportedly converted to Christianity.

    Indo-Asian News | Easy print

    17/01/07 | INDIA 'Disappearance' of orphan children alleged

    State blocks kids' return, then serves notice on mission. Full Story...

    After Rajasthan state officials turned away hundreds of children returning to an orphanage run by Emmanuel Mission International (EMI) last year, the state's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government has formed a committee to investigate EMI for the alleged 'disappearance' of children.

    EMI attorney Mohammad Akram said the state Social Welfare Department first served notice to EMI on 5 December, saying a committee had been formed to look into the disappearance of children at the orphanage after the number of residents fell from more than 1,700 to only 435.

    Mr Akram explained that most of the children had left in March 2006 in order to spend the summer holiday in their villages. Only 435 children remained in the orphanage.

    "When the other children returned, department officials refused to accept them back," Akram explained.

    District authorities told the children they needed government permission to stay at the orphanage.

    "Since they were all from poor backgrounds, they did not dare approach the authorities and consequently went back to their villages," Mr Akram said.

    "In fact, some of them who had nowhere to go have now become rag-pickers."

    The BJP helped launch a campaign against EMI in January 2006. On 10 January, the state Social Welfare Department served notice to EMI for the third time in a month, asking it to promptly furnish details about the children at its Hope Centre Orphanage in Raipura, Kota district.

    The department asked for EMI's registration number, the names of its members and a list of children registered at the orphanage, along with names, addresses and contact information.

    It gave EMI less than 24 hours to comply.

    The notice also sought an explanation as to why a large number of children had left the orphanage and where they had gone, even asking which airlines they had used were they to have left the country.

    "EMI replied to the notice on 5 December, saying it needed at least 20 days to provide the details," Mr Akram told reporters.

    The department sent another notice on 22 December 2006, saying the details must be submitted by 25 December.

    "However by this time we had realised that some documents, seemingly taken away by department officials who were deployed at the orphanage last year, were missing," Mr Akram said.

    EMI wrote to the department on 26 December 2006 asking it to return the missing documents so that requested paperwork could be completed. The department however denied taking any documents from the orphanage.

    Smear campaign

    The department sent officials to the orphanage after the state High Court dismissed five petitions filed by EMI on 13 June 2006.

    EMI filed the petitions after the Kota Registrar of Societies revoked the registration of five EMI institutions on 20 February 2006 and froze their bank accounts, claiming infringements of society regulations.

    Social Welfare officials remained at the orphanage until the high court ordered them to leave on 8 August 2006.

    EMI operates the Emmanuel Bible Institute Samiti, Emmanuel Anath Ashram (orphanage), Emmanuel School Society, Emmanuel Chikitsalaya (hospital) Samiti, and Emmanuel Believers Fellowship. The organisation also leads an indigenous church movement and serves over 10,000 children through humanitarian and educational work.

    Mr Akram said it was "extremely unfortunate" that the department had targeted the Rev Dr Samuel Thomas, president of EMI and the son of Archbishop M A Thomas, EMI's founder, who "are selflessly serving the poor and the downtrodden".

    "As a result, many destitute children are suffering," he said.

    Tensions in Kota began on 25 January 2006 when Archbishop Thomas and his son received anonymous death threats warning them not to hold an annual graduation ceremony for hundreds of orphans and Dalit Christian students, scheduled for 25 February.

    The Rajasthan state police then arrested Rev Dr Samuel Thomas on 16 March 2006 for allegedly distributing the book Haqeekat (The Truth), which supposedly denigrated the Hindu faith.

    The police had earlier arrested several other EMI leaders in connection with the book.

    In March 2006, a delegation from the All India Christian Council submitted a report to India's prime minister concluding that the ruling BJP party had encouraged state authorities to harass Christians, including EMI staff.

    The report named Social Welfare Minister Madan Dilawar as a key figure in the campaign against EMI.

    Rev Dr Thomas was released on bail on 2 May 2006, while his father remained underground until the state High Court granted anticipatory bail for him on 7 August 2006.

    Compass | Easy print

    16/01/07 | INDIA Christian weds despite Hindu protests

    Groom accused of 'luring' animist bride with money. Full Story...

    An Indian couple whose marriage was postponed three times due to protests from a Hindu nationalist group finally married on Thursday 11 January in Jabalpur.

    Peter Abraham, aged 38, and Meena Gond, 36, first applied for permission to marry at the Jabalpur district marriage office in October 2006.

    The Special Marriages Act requires the office to invite objections after a couple applies to register a marriage.

    Objections must be filed during a mandatory 40-day notice period.

    When the 40 days had expired last November, Jabalpur marriage officer Deepak Singh refused to register the marriage, saying he had received objections from a member of the Hindu nationalist group Dharma Sena.

    "Peter is a Christian we suspect he has lured this innocent tribal girl by offering her money," Sudhir Aggarwal, Dharma Sena convener in the Mahakaushal region told local reporters.

    "Meena will later be forced to change her religion."

    Meena is an animist. The couple met through relatives and developed a liking for each other that superseded their religious differences.

    Ceremony postponed

    The marriage registrar asked Abraham and Gond to appear before him on 20 December. To the couple's dismay however the office then postponed the wedding ceremony as investigations into Mr Aggarwal's complaint were still underway.

    A second date was set for 4 January. On that day, however, a mob of about 65 to 70 Dharma Sena members waving saffron flags surrounded the registrar's office.

    "In spite of the bride being crippled from polio, the couple had to flee the mob," a local source said.

    Mr Singh, the marriage officer, denied any miscarriage of justice.

    "Since I received two objections, we had to investigate the matter," he told reporters.

    "On 8 January, once the complaints were found to be baseless, we gave the couple permission to marry. They fixed their date for 11 January and after recording their statements, the marriage certificate was issued."

    Mr Singh also denied any involvement of the Dharma Sena in the repeated postponement of the marriage.

    Baseless accusations

    Meena's brother, Radhey Gond, strongly objected to Aggarwal's charge of Christian missionaries encouraging people such as Peter Abraham to convert poor tribal people.

    " Peter has been a daily wage earner for years. How can a poor rickshaw-puller bribe a woman if he has no money?" he asked.

    He said he was touched by Peter's decision to marry his sister: "She can barely walk," he said. "We had all along thought nobody would marry her."

    John Dayal, secretary general of the All India Christian Council, told reporters that Mr Aggarwal and others had no legal grounds for their complaint:

    "They are in fact committing a crime by physically, socially or psychologically injuring any partner by way of assault, boycott or social marginalisation," he said.

    Indira Iyenger, president of the joint Madhya Pradesh-Chattisgarh Christian Forum, agreed: "This is another attempt of Hindu nationalists to harass the Christian community," she opined.

    "Peter and Meena are consenting adults, and it is their fundamental right to marry."

    Marriage incentives

    Moreover, Iyenger added, if anyone could be accused of offering financial inducements, it was the Madhya Pradesh Bharatiya Janata Party government, which has offered a cash incentive of 50,000 rupees (575) to any non-tribal person who would marry someone from a tribal background.

    Tribal Welfare Commissioner K K Singh admitted that the state had offered this incentive but said he was "not sure" if it applied to Christians and Muslims.

    "The broad objective of the scheme is to end social discrimination and untouchability among Hindu castes," Mr Singh argued. "How can religions that do not have untouchability be eligible for this incentive?"

    Jabalpur Congress Party chief Naresh Saraf however told the Telegraph the scheme's provisions made no reference to religion.

    Compass | Easy print

    11/01/07 | INDIA Hindu nationalists beat four pastors

    Youth: "Christ shed his blood now you do the same". Full Story...

    Seven youths beat Pastor Robert Kennedy of Bangalore in Karnataka state on Sunday 7 January, after asking him to "pray for a sick friend".

    he pastor required 16 stitches to his head and back after the assault.

    In neighbouring Andhra Pradesh state, Hindu extremists beat two pastors on 6 and 7 January, and another on 28 December, after warning them to cease Christian activities in their villages.

    Pastor Kennedy and the small congregation of Jesus Preeti Church had gathered for worship on Sunday morning when seven young men entered the house church and sat down.

    They talked amongst themselves, and one of them made calls on his mobile phone as Kennedy preached.

    At about 12:30pm, when the service had ended and the believers had left, the youths approached Kennedy and asked him to accompany them to the home of a sick friend who needed prayer.

    Since the house was supposedly nearby, Kennedy asked some of the young men to bring the patient to the church for prayer.

    As three in the group made their way towards the front door, the others turned on the pastor and beat him severely.

    "Suddenly all four attacked me, slapping my face, back and chest," Pastor Kennedy reported.

    "One of them grabbed the microphone stand and struck me across the back, causing a deep gash, and blood began flowing out."

    The three who had not yet left the church came back and slapped the pastor, who had fallen to the floor. They then struck him with the circular base of the microphone stand, causing severe bleeding.

    "They said to me, 'You were telling everyone that Christ shed his blood now you do the same,'" Kennedy added.

    The youths also beat a church member identified only as Rajendran, who happened to return to the church.

    Kennedy believed his assailants were members of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) or some other Hindu nationalist group, as "they were mocking the teachings of Christ".

    Ten minutes after the assault began, the youths left. Rajendran called for assistance from other church members and Pastor Kennedy was taken to a nearby clinic, where he received 13 stitches to his back and three stitches to his head.

    Pastor Kennedy later filed an official complaint at the Rajgopal police station.

    At press time no arrests had been made.

    Assaults in Andhra Pradesh

    Also on Sunday 7 January, Hindu extremists at about 8:30pm severely beat Pastor Narsimullu Jacob of Vanasthalipuran village, Telangana region of Andhra Pradesh state.

    The nationalists had warned Narsimullu that morning to cease holding worship services and conducting evangelism in the area.

    A day earlier, 34-year old Pastor Malaiya Gabriel was returning home from a weekly catechism class when a group of nine men approached him and warned him to stop 'indoctrinating' the village children with stories about Christ.

    Gabriel, who converted from Hinduism two years ago, lives in Shivalingam village in Nizamabad district.

    Lionel Francis, coordinator of the Global Council of Indian Christians, said the men threatened Gabriel with dire consequences if he continued his missionary activities.

    That evening (6 January) at around 8:30pm, Pastor Gabriel was returning from a visit to another Christian's home when a mob of around 50 people thrashed him with wooden clubs and batons.

    "They threatened to kill him if he did not stop evangelising," Francis said.

    Gabriel was taken to a hospital for treatment.

    "There is a worrying pattern of behaviour in the activities of the RSS in Telangana," Francis told reporters.

    "First they issue a warning, and later the mob attacks."

    On 28 December, Hindu nationalists beat Pastor Pawan Kumar, an independent pastor ministering near Bodhan, Telangana. The extremists entered the home of local believer Issac Raju and beat some 14 Christians, burning their Bibles and sound system.

    Extremists had warned Pawan earlier that day to cease his Christian activities.

    "The RSS and the Bajrang Dal have become much bolder in their attacks on Christians in Telengana," Mr Francis said.

    "Even though we have filed complaints, no arrests have been made in relation to these attacks."

    Compass | Easy print

    08/01/07 | INDIA Anti-Christian attacks mark New Year

    Nationalists beat believers, damage cars, stage protest. Full Story...

    Victims received internal injuries from a savage beating by Hindu nationalists
    After launching several anti-Christian attacks during the last week of 2006, Hindu nationalists went on to beat more Christians, vandalise vehicles and organise a protest rally against a church, dampening New Year celebrations.

    Extremists beat four pastors and vandalised a vehicle in the north central state of Uttar Pradesh state on 2 January.

    They attacked two more Christians and damaged another vehicle in neighbouring Madhya Pradesh state, whilst on the same day others staged an anti-Christian rally in the southern state of Andhra Pradesh.

    At midday on 2 January, around 200 members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP or World Hindu Council), attacked four pastors of the Brethren Assembly church in Indrapuram, near Delhi, Uttar Pradesh.

    The victims, identified as Samuel John, George Thomas, Abraham George and V P Paulouse, received internal injuries.

    "We were attacked while we were distributing tracts on God's love to the local residents," George reported.

    He said the attackers accused the pastors of offering money to Hindus for their conversion to Christianity, an allegation he denies.

    The nationalists also badly damaged a car belonging to Pastor Paulouse.

    After the attack, the mob dragged the Christians to the local police station. Officers kept the injured Christians in the police station for more than four hours but did not register the nationalists' complaint of 'forced conversions'.

    Police also refused to file an incident report on behalf of the Christians.

    The All India Christian Council (AICC) offered assistance in lodging an official complaint, but the pastors said they preferred not to press charges. "We are Christians, and we believe in forgiveness," George said.

    Dr John Dayal, secretary general of the AICC, condemned the attack: "The fact that Christians can be attacked in the National Capital Region (NCR) reflects how insecure we are in this country," he assessed.

    The NCR includes Delhi and neighbouring cities of Ghaziabad, Noida, Faridabad and Gurgaon.

    Madhya Pradesh attack

    The same day, extremists of the Dharma Sena (Religious Army) beat two Christians in Devera village in the Singroli area of Madhya Pradesh.

    The Rev Madhu Chandra of the AICC reports local Christians Shyam Sunder and Ram Deen received injuries in the chest and legs.

    He said the attack took place when nine Christians guests of Nahum Das, a local Christian belonging to an independent church were visiting Tez Bali, a believer in Devera village.

    When the Christians were in Mr Bali's house, local residents told them that violent Hindu nationalists were approaching to launch an attack. Hearing the news, Mr Bali hid the nine guests in a room and locked it from the outside.

    The nationalists, however, damaged the boundary wall and broke into the house. They also broke the lock of the room where the Christians were hiding and beat Mr Sunder and Mr Deen.

    They also vandalised a car belonging to Mr Das in which the Christian visitors were travelling.

    When Mr Das was informed about the attack, he called the police, who rescued the Christian visitors.

    The police reluctantly registered a complaint against the attackers after the intervention of a government official.

    "To justify their attack, the extremists lodged a counter-complaint against the Christians accusing them of conversions," a representative of the Christian Legal Association of India told journalists.

    Police registered a case against the victims for 'disturbing religious harmony' under the Indian Penal code and for 'indulging in conversions' under the Madhya Pradesh Freedom of Religion Act.

    Police had not arrested anyone at press time and were investigating the complaints.

    Anti-Christian rally

    Also on 2 January, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) organised a protest rally against the construction of a building by the Good Shepherd Community Church (GSCC) in Rodham, Ananthapur district, Andhra Pradesh.

    According to an AICC report, a leader of the RSS, identified only as Giri, and a BJP leader, Lokesh Gupta, gathered about 200 people raising objections to the GSCC's plan to construct a church near a Hindu temple.

    The crowd also accused the church of converting Hindus in the area.

    Hindu nationalists had on Christmas Eve burnt down a church, arrested carol-singers and disrupted yuletide services in several states.

    Compass | Easy print
    Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.-Isaiah 41:10
    I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made - Psalms 139.14a
    Also active on WePlayCiv.


    • #17

      05/01/07 | INDIA Evangelists beaten by Hindus, then arrested

      Falsely charged with attempted 'forced conversion'. Full Story...

      On the afternoon of January 2, seven evangelists were on an outreach mission at Indirapuram in Niti Khand III, Ghaziabad, in Uttar Pradesh state. An angry mob of the local people gathered and beat four of the seven missionaries and threw stones at their vehicle, overturning it.

      Three of the evangelists fled, and the gospel tracts found with the evangelists were burned.

      When the Indirapuram police later arrived at the scene, they controlled the situation and arrested the four missionaries, charging them with attempting to carry out 'forced conversions'.

      An account in a major Hindi print daily newspaper, Dainik Jagran, on 3 January stated, "According to the police, at one o'clock in the afternoon some people from Brethren Assembly, Noida, were preaching using loudspeakers and asking local people to accept Christianity.

      "The police were told by the locals that the preachers were offering big inducements to accept Christianity.

      "They said the preachers were saying people would be given 100,000 rupees [1,160], that they [the preachers] would get them married and would give them houses to live in."

      The paper went on to say the people "opposed the preachers and asked them to stop preaching, but the preachers kept speaking on the loudspeakers."

      As a result, "the local people got agitated and caught the preachers."

      The angry mob then beat four of the evangelists, burned their gospel tracts and threw rocks at their car, overturning their off-road vehicle.

      Three of the evangelists fled the scene when they saw the angry crowd gathering.

      The police took four preachers into custody: Samuel John, Abraham George, VP Paulus and George Thomas.


      Open Doors sources verified the incident, but said the charges levied against the evangelists are false and baseless. The evangelists were not offering any inducements to local residents. They were simply sharing the message of the gospel and were distributing tracts to all those who were willing to read them.

      There was never any mention of a monetary bribe or did they in any manner ask people to change their religion.

      It is a fundamental right as a citizen of the country to be able to share one's faith, and the evangelists did not violate any law by sharing the message of the gospel.

      They did use a handheld, battery-operated microphone, but even then the sound was limited, and it was not a loudspeaker as is mentioned in the Dainik Jagran article.

      Serious bodily harm

      The evangelists were severely beaten and needed medical treatment for their injuries.

      In addition, their vehicle was badly damaged, and they were kept locked up at the Vasundhara police station for four hours.

      The violent Hindu nationalists made sure they received media attention by calling known reporters from a major Hindi print daily (Dainik Jagran) and an electronic media reporter (from Sahara TV).

      The incident was aired on telly as well as published in a defamatory manner on the front page of the Hindi newspaper.

      The nationalists managed to lodge a First Information Report (FIR) against the evangelists for attempting to carry out 'forced conversions'.

      The police however refused to register a counter-FIR against those who beat up the evangelists. Only a written complaint was entertained, of which no copy/acknowledgement was given to the detained and harassed evangelists.

      Open Doors International | Easy print

      05/01/07 | INDIA Another state passes anti-conversion bill

      Christians term move in Himachal Pradesh 'cruel joke'. Full Story...

      India's Congress Party have passed an anti-conversion bill in the northern state of Himachal Pradesh, where only 8,000 of the more than 6 million people are Christians.

      The Himachal Pradesh ironically titled 'Freedom of Religion Bill' was passed on Saturday 30 December during the four-day winter session of the state assembly. It remains to be signed into law.

      Vijay Kumar, principal secretary of the state home department, said that under the bill any person found forcibly converting another person could be imprisoned for up to two years and/or fined up to 25,000 rupees (290).

      Kumar also said that any person wishing to convert to another religion must give prior notice of at least 30 days to the district government. "If he or she fails to do it, the penalty will be a fine up to 1,000 rupees," he said.

      Asked if the government had any official data on forcible conversions in the state to justify the bill, Kumar said no such data was available.

      "It is not a reactionary measure, but a proactive one, to infuse confidence among the people of the state that the government is thoughtful of the issues," he said.

      Dr John Dayal, secretary general of the All India Christian Council, termed the move of the state government a "cruel joke":

      "[Congress Party leader] Sonia Gandhi had written to me expressing her government's and party's opposition to such laws being passed by the BJP [Bharatiya Janata Party] governments," he reports.

      "But now, her own party in Himachal Pradesh has brought about such a bill."

      Dr Dayal, who is also member of the National Integration Council, said the state chief minister, Vir Bhadra Singh, was playing into the hands of Hindu nationalists.

      "It is no honour to the Congress Party, and it must disown the bill and have it withdrawn," he added.

      Ministry as 'allurement'

      Known as "Freedom of Religion" acts, anti-conversion laws are in force in the states of Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Arunachal Pradesh.

      Christians point out that anti-conversion laws allow Hindus to term any social work among people of other faiths as 'allurement', and any talk of eternal destiny as a consequence of sin as 'force'.

      Anti-conversion laws recognise the sacrament of baptism as conversion and hence require churches to report all baptisms of non-Christian converts to government officials.

      The opposition BJP, a Hindu nationalist party that had in September 2006 promised to enact an anti-conversion law if it came into power in the state assembly elections in 2008, welcomed the bill's passage, reported Asia News International (ANI).

      The leader of the opposition, Prem Kumar Dhumal, told national daily The Indian Express last September, "After coming to power in Himachal Pradesh, the BJP would bring legislation against religious conversion and slaughtering of cows [considered holy by Hindus], as the present government has completely failed to protect the rights of the Hindus."

      On 7 April 2006 the BJP passed a similar bill in Rajasthan state. It also passed bills to amend the existing anti-conversion laws in Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh on 25 July and 3 August respectively.

      In addition, the party passed a bill to amend dormant anti-conversion legislation in Gujarat on 19 September of last year.

      The chief minister of Tamil Nadu state, J Jayalalithaa, had announced the repeal of that state's anti-conversion law (the Prohibition of Forcible Conversion of Religion Act) in May 2004, following the poor performance of her party in the April 2004 general elections.

      Compass | Easy print

      That was only for this year.
      Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.-Isaiah 41:10
      I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made - Psalms 139.14a
      Also active on WePlayCiv.


      • #18

        Idiots wanting to impose their backward religion/laws on the rest of us


        • #19
          "Gandhi adopts Theocracy"
          Speaking of Erith:

          "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith


          • #20
            I'll address each article in detail later, but let me just say that this is a very, very convenient and selective distribution of blame.

            When the BJP was in power at the centre, every religious problem that ever happened, even though completely unconnected with them, was blamed on them. Now that the Congress is at the centre, everything is blamed on the state governments.


            • #21
              Originally posted by notyoueither
              I feel the author has a seriously twisted view of what multiculturalism necessarily entails.
              I agree. One of us must be on the wrong side.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...


              • #22
                The author's a complete nutjob...

                edit: oh, that was Bruckner!
                In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.


                • #23
                  Enlightenment fundamentalism or racism of the anti-racists?

                  Pascal Bruckner...

                  Good, I've read enough.
                  "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                  "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                  "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis


                  • #24
                    How easy to respond to 4000 words by a short ad-hominem.

                    Did you have to read the article at all?


                    • #25
                      I agree with this article completely. It sums up my stance sometimes, like that due to multiculturalism, we treat western ideals and standarts as regional. We find them good and crush christians who oppose against them - yet when a muslim does oppose it, it's his right which should be protected
                      "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                      I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                      Middle East!


                      • #26
                        Boredom does really lead to making ****ty decisions. I was so extremely bored that I read the OP
                        "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                        "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                        "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis


                        • #27
                          "Multiculturalism" as used in Europe is a phrase for excusing racial discrimination

                          Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                          How easy to respond to 4000 words by a short ad-hominem.

                          Did you have to read the article at all?
                          That is a very typical response which I have encountered many, many times when reading Finnish newspapers. When self-proclaimed "multiculturalists" are trying to defend blatantly racist policies which can be defended rationally, such as forcing companies to hire and reject invididuals on the basis of race, they concentrate their efforts on the name of an relatively unknown author who is criticising state-enforced racism and try to convince with winks and nudges that the author is a well known reactionary/neo-nazi/xenophobe/whatever the current newspeak term for "person who disagrees with me" is.

                          I feel the author has a seriously twisted view of what multiculturalism necessarily entails.
                          The recent widespread criticism of what is described as "multiculturalism" in Europe indeed probably feels odd to persons living in America. You must realize that the whole term "multiculturalism" is a classic case of orwellian doublespeak: as it is enforced now, it has absolutely nothing to do with equal treatment of persons from all cultures. It is simply a political combination of two words with positive connotation which is used as an excuse in enforcing inequality in front of laws. I think that real multi-culturalism would be a great thing. I know that "multiculturalism" as it is currently used in EU lexicon is barbaric, hateful and evil.

                          A big for Spiffor for knee-jerk rhetorical defense of bigotry in order to stay politically within with his "communist" party line, and even bigger for going with hateful personal attacks instead of honest debate and discussion about the issues.
                          Last edited by RGBVideo; February 4, 2007, 14:05.


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tingkai
                            So if multiculturism is bad, does this mean that Canadian Jews should forget their roots and become Christian? Or is it just Canadian Muslims who should forget their roots?
                            Oooh you make it hurt when it's so personal

                            Obviously any person who is made to follow local legal standards and NOT given an exemption, loses his own identity.

                            What will the Jews do, now that they can't sacrifice and eat away christian children?



                            It is not Jewish scholars that want to exempt themselves from local laws.

                            Anytime a Jewish movement will attempt to oppress or limit women, or ask for an exemption of state laws, I will oppose it and condemn it.

                            I also doubt any Jews in the diaspora dream of setting up a Halacha state.


                            • #29
                              We find them good and crush christians who oppose against them - yet when a muslim does oppose it, it's his right which should be protected
                              This is the problem, altough "we" should be replaced. I do not, and you do not if I presume correctly, tolerate discrimination based on religion. I believe we two have a mutual agreement that muslims do not have the right for their own law treatment just because Qu'ran says it's OK for them to do something evil.

                              Thus, "we" two don't tolerate discrimination and double standards. "You", "They" or "politicians" might at the moment, but we do not.


                              • #30
                                It's not out of hate. It's just that I've read enough Bruckner pieces (including his La tentation de l'innocence, which I actually appreciated when I was 18), to know what to expect from his pieces. There was nothing out ouf the expected in this article.

                                Basically, the main reason I disagree with Bruckner is his method. A method that is most prevalent among French thinkers (including one I like, Pierre Bourdieu). A method which I have been taught for more than 4 years as part of my administrative training.

                                Bruckner, along with many others, writes about society. However, he doesn't have the honesty that we should expect from an analysis: he has a pre-conceived idea before writing his article (or his book), and he just uses the part of the reality that backs it up. Weather scientists often get accused of using such dishonest methods - I don't know if it's true of them (I don't know anything about wheather science), but I can immediately it's true for Bruckner and almost all the French intelligentsia*.

                                As to the content: I strongly disagree with Bruckner's idea that enligntenment progressed as it was enforced. Well, maybe some things like the metric system (we see that in those countries that didn't enforce it, barbariansim still prevails), all right.
                                But otherwise, the fight has generally led to alienate people instead of pushing them faster towards enlightenment, knowing that modern society is almost bound to follow the logic of enlightenment. The epitome of enforced enlightenment bringing darkness in the end is Iran (where the reactionary mullahs took over with popular support, against the outright modernist Shah - and now, the Mullahs are fearing a modernization coming from the urban middle class).

                                So, enlightenment has never progressed well at gunpoint. It has progressed when people were willing to embrace it. And I get to meet enough secular Muslims (or Atheists from a Muslim family) to know that it still works.

                                Bruckner's rants are mostly aimed at a French audience. So pardon me if I speak about France a bit. Nobody in established French politics envisions a country where Muslims have no chance but submit to the Muslim law, where Jews have no chance but to submit to the Jewish law etc. Maybe some radical members of minorities would want a status like that (it actually exists in the colonial island of Mayotte, where marriage and inheritance is done according to the traditional Islamic law). But I've never heard of a politician defeniding the idea, even half-assedly. My own party is probably the one most open to migrants and to other cultures (we opposed the headscarf ban), and we want a more egalitarian society. On the other side, Sarkozy is often accused of wanting to turn France into a country with tight-knit communities, similar to the US; however, I've never heard him talking about making different laws for different religious groups, despite him making his intentions clear (until two monthes ago).

                                In short, his rant has no reality in French politics, despite its length. It's some more alarm-ringing and doomsaying.

                                *BTW, if I wrote a book, it would be filled with the exact same kind of ideological and dishonest BS. However, I don't think I'd try to sell it as a thought-provoking analysis of society.
                                "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                                "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                                "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis