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Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

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  • #61
    The US is also a country where it's normal for a news anchor to ask a newly-elected Muslim representative "please convince me that you aren't working for the enemy" and for people to attack a Presidential candidate because his name sounds Muslim, both widely broadcast around the world.

    I think that it would be unfair to judge the US according to FOX news.

    Each nation has its own xenophobes and right wingers. The US is simply free enough that they get on TV. If Obama wants to sue, he would. Only that would give him more PR troubles. I think that he infact gains by having this issue discussed - because funny enough - many people think this way, and getting a chance to answer those claims is important.

    I think it is great that someone asks him what values he holds and what happens when his faith, and US western values will clash. Is the BBC brave enough to ask that of UK muslims?

    Not to say I support FOX libeling Obama to be a terrorist.
    But the question of his values is important.

    Many Muslims feel the US is at war with them. Hell, many Americans seem to think this. So yes, the US is an entirely unrespected peacekeeper in Muslim nations. Put US troups into a Muslim country, violence will increase, as they'll see it as provocation. Add to that the ties to Israel and it seems relatively obvious why Muslim countries don't like the US, and wouldn't appreciate US forces in their countries.

    That is in a great deal due to a long delegitimization process made by local muslim leaders, when they see fit. This is part of the cultural trend that should be eradicated.


    My point isn't that the USA is in a great political position right now.

    The EU is neutral enough, and may seem great and much better equipped to handle this. But you forget that reality is set by interests and not casual diplomacy.

    The EU is hesitant and 'meaningless'. It has a tendency to be afraid of "rocking the boat" and a love for long winded debates. Which is the last thing that the middle east needs right now.

    Of course Iran, Syria and Hamas would prefer the EU. Not because they are "impartial". But because the EU has no teeth. Nor does it have any serious demands of them. You can see every demand the EU made towards Hamas or Iran become gradually weakened and softened. So of course they are going to love the EU.

    Just because the US has made some popular moves before, it is currently burning all bridges with the Muslim world. Are you arguing that the US is seen as a credible peacekeeping in Iraq? Or that if the US were to send troups to Iran to keep the peace or prevent nuclear proliferation that the Iranians would respect them as peacekeepers?

    The US is making moves - be they popular or not.

    The EU does nothing of importance. There's no reason why should anyone seek its help.

    For Syria - will the EU force Israel to give up the golan heights?
    For Israel - will the EU oversee a future Syrian promise to disarm Hezbullah?

    On the Palestinian front:
    For the Pals - will the EU put peace keepers on Gaza streets?
    Can they make Israel to deliver eastern Jerusalem?
    For the Israelis - Can the EU really guard and support the Palestinian secular government? Can they really demand Hamas to recognize Israel?


    As for Iran - there no need for anyone to 'keep the peace' and if you think that EU observers will be welcome - you are delusional.

    Iran is bent on doing what it can to achieve nuclear status.
    It prefers dealing with the EU since it is easier to manipulate. The iranians have no interest to 'supervise' themselves, and they will stand against anyone who will demand that. The EU simply does a worse job enforcing.
    Last edited by Sirotnikov; February 3, 2007, 13:14.

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    • #62
      Re: Re: Re: Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

      Originally posted by Drogue
      Iraq now? Sure, there's an insurgency, but there's no war with a country. It's peacekeeping - trying to keep the insurgents from having too much effect and building a lasting peace.
      100-nil. And nope, it's not peacekeeping, there's no peace to keep and never was.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
        I think that it would be unfair to judge the US according to FOX news.
        I'm not judging. I'm saying that many people around the world know about that and believe it to be in keeping with the US. It's not about me judging, it's about the effect it has.

        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
        I think it is great that someone asks him what values he holds and what happens when his faith, and US western values will clash. Is the BBC brave enough to ask that of UK muslims?
        A bit of an aside, but Obama is a Christian, so there shouldn't be an issue of his faith and Western values clashing, in the context of the US in the Middle-East.

        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
        My point isn't that the USA is in a great political position right now.

        The EU is neutral enough, and may seem great and much better equipped to handle this. But you forget that reality is set by interests and not casual diplomacy.

        The EU is hesitant and 'meaningless'. It has a tendency to be afraid of "rocking the boat" and a love for long winded debates. Which is the last thing that the middle east needs right now.

        Of course Iran, Syria and Hamas would prefer the EU. Not because they are "impartial". But because the EU has no teeth. Nor does it have any serious demands of them. You can see every demand the EU made towards Hamas or Iran become gradually weakened and softened. So of course they are going to love the EU.
        The point I'm making, that I still stand by, is that the US is not a credible peacekeeper in the Middle-East. Do you disagree with that? You seem to be going off the issue here with what is a good or bad policy, which wasn't my intention at all. My point is that when it comes to peacekeeping in the Middle-East, like Iraq at the moment and possibly other countries in years to come, the US is not credible, whereas the EU, or more likely the UN, is.

        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
        As for Iran - there no need for anyone to 'keep the peace' and if you think that EU observers will be welcome - you are delusional.
        I don't, but I expect the UN with invade Iran within a decade or two. Iran isn't going to stop making nukes, the sanctions won't work, therefore it will come to military action. My point is that a UN or EU peacekeeping force would be much less inflamatory after the invasion, when it comes to winning the peace.

        All I'm saying is that in a situation in the Middle-East that requires peacekeeping, such as Iraq now or any other country that may be invaded, for whatever reasons, will need UN or EU peacekeepers to be successful, as US peacekeepers will not be credible.
        Smile
        For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
        But he would think of something

        "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

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        • #64
          Re: Re: Re: Re: Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

          Originally posted by Kuciwalker And nope, it's not peacekeeping, there's no peace to keep and never was.
          Then which country are you at war with? You've taken the country, you control the country, now it's about keeping the peace. Unless the US has a declaration of war, I'd consider it peace. Moreover, similar missions in Serbia were considered peacekeeping missions. And lastly it's generally referred to, even by the administration at times, as winning the peace.

          Either way, that's semantics. The point is if the force in Iraq were a UN not a US force, it would ease some tensions, since the US is seen as an invader. The US is not a credible positive force in Muslim countries as they feel like the enemy of the US.

          Originally posted by Doddler
          What's wrong with it being the sole world policeman? I'd certainly prefer the US to be sole policeman than to be hampered by the weakness of our continental neighbours when it comes to tough decisions.
          The same thing that's wrong with any dictatorship - it's unaccountable and only reflects the opinions of one sect. Nobody should be the sole world policemen, as it gives unrestricted powers (the whole absolute corruption argument) and moreover it just then reflects US opinion, not world/UN opinion.
          Smile
          For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
          But he would think of something

          "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

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          • #65
            Re: Re: Re: Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

            Originally posted by Drogue
            That's my point, how do we turn the EU into something the US will listen to? Or will they ever? If not, can we do something to make it that the US isn't the sole world policeman?
            I think you give Europe way too much credit. Few Europeans have any interest in changing such that the US is in a position to listen to it. It's all about the freebies.

            Europe doesn't even put much effort into public diplomacy in the US. Basically, they want the American media to spout the European talking points for free. And when the American media rightly ignores them, they complain about the American public being uninformed.

            Let's put it this way. Kuwait puts more effort into public diplomacy in the US than all of Europe put together.
            Last edited by DanS; February 3, 2007, 15:01.
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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            • #66
              Unless the US has a declaration of war, I'd consider it peace.
              Then we've only waged peace since World War II. That seems like an odd definition of war to use in this instance.
              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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              • #67
                The EU is dhimmified, pussified and Finlandized. They couldn't even take care of the Serbs without whining for us. They are like little brothers.

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                • #68
                  go look at warp thread sailor. I went through all steps of gedankenexperiment in glorious detail for you.
                  12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                  Stadtluft Macht Frei
                  Killing it is the new killing it
                  Ultima Ratio Regum

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by KrazyHorse
                    go look at warp thread sailor. I went through all steps of gedankenexperiment in glorious detail for you.
                    Ok. But can you make it easy. I feel like I have to stretch a lot to keep track of what all is going on.

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                    • #70

                      A bit of an aside, but Obama is a Christian, so there shouldn't be an issue of his faith and Western values clashing, in the context of the US in the Middle-East.

                      I mean Keith Ellison
                      So did you, right?

                      The point I'm making, that I still stand by, is that the US is not a credible peacekeeper in the Middle-East. Do you disagree with that? You seem to be going off the issue here with what is a good or bad policy, which wasn't my intention at all. My point is that when it comes to peacekeeping in the Middle-East, like Iraq at the moment and possibly other countries in years to come, the US is not credible, whereas the EU, or more likely the UN, is.

                      I understand where we part.

                      I think credibility is irrelevant.

                      I think people judge who intends to make a change, and who intends to blow wind. That's one of the reasons why the EU has as little political power as it does. What good is a peace keeper or a mediator if it can't enforce anything, and backs out of agreements?

                      IMO the muslims do not think higher about the EU than about the US. The EU is just easier to mislead and have him do nothing about bad stuff that Syria, Iran and Hamas want to do. So obviously the US isn't "credible" because they tend to make demands and often stand by them.

                      I was also making the general point that the EU is currently so uninvolved in ME politics (beyond mere statement making) that the US has a huge fore on it, even though it is not credible. The EU is not credible since it hasn't done anything yet.

                      Getting involved in the ME politics isn't simply as easy a matter to "decide to get involved". You must prove your worth. Currently neither Israel not the arab states think you amount to anything. Russia has far more influence - it is a source of money and weapons.

                      I don't, but I expect the UN with invade Iran within a decade or two. Iran isn't going to stop making nukes, the sanctions won't work, therefore it will come to military action. My point is that a UN or EU peacekeeping force would be much less inflamatory after the invasion, when it comes to winning the peace.

                      My point is that the EU will either refuse to use military measures, or will run away immediately when trouble starts - like it always does.

                      In that sense it would be much less inflamatory - as it will be non-existant

                      All I'm saying is that in a situation in the Middle-East that requires peacekeeping, such as Iraq now or any other country that may be invaded, for whatever reasons, will need UN or EU peacekeepers to be successful, as US peacekeepers will not be credible.

                      What is stopping the EU from getting more involved in Iraq right now?
                      If I'm not mistaken EU countries ran away after feeble threats were issued in 2003-2004.

                      Do you think anyone will take the EU seriously after that?

                      I'm sorry but in my opinion your foreign policy is a joke and you're too a scared, inefficient and non-committed to do anything.

                      Which would be a good reason for Syria or Iran to want you involved instead of the US. You just seem to take that as a compliment.


                      Btw, IMO the ME doesn't need "peace keeping". It needs ass kicking. Yes, that probably includes Israel.

                      The US is the only one willing to get its hands dirty though.

                      Comeback to me when you're ready to send 50,000 brittish troups to police in Iran or Iraq.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                        I mean Keith Ellison
                        So did you, right?
                        Ahh, sorry, my bad. I though you were still referring to Obama. Yes, I did mean Keith Ellison in my earlier post.

                        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                        I understand where we part.

                        I think credibility is irrelevant.
                        Fair point. I can see where we differ. I just think the US will lose a lot of lives in Iraq and probably later Iran, whereas if a UN peacekeeping mission could be set up, fewer lives would be lost. I'm also arguing for a change in EU/UN attitudes towards not backing out of agreements. I don't like the US cavalier attitude of charging in, but I do want us to be firm - resolutions against Iranian nuclear development with enforced checks, and if it doesn't comply, then military action to enforce it.

                        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                        What is stopping the EU from getting more involved in Iraq right now?
                        Tbh, pride and money. The US has messed up, and EU politicians don't want to pay the cost for that by trying to clear it up. A bit greedy, IMHO. Their opinion is that the US should have done it their way and since it didn't, it can clear up the mess. Which I understand, though don't agree with.

                        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                        I'm sorry but in my opinion your foreign policy is a joke and you're too a scared, inefficient and non-committed to do anything.
                        While I see your point, I wouldn't generally refer to EU foreign policy as a singular, as it doesn't collectively have a military or a foreign policy in that sense. Being British, we are involved in Iraq. But I do see your point.

                        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                        Btw, IMO the ME doesn't need "peace keeping". It needs ass kicking. Yes, that probably includes Israel.

                        The US is the only one willing to get its hands dirty though.
                        That's exactly it. The US thinks the ME needs an ass-kicking, and the EU thinks we need to respect sovereignty while trying to keep the peace. The US is the only one willing to ass-kick, not because it's the only one willing to try, but because it's the only one who thinks getting it's hands dirty is the right thing to do.

                        Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                        Comeback to me when you're ready to send 50,000 brittish troups to police in Iran or Iraq.
                        I don't think we have 50,000 British troups. However if the EU go it's act together and decided to, it could probably hit double that. *If* we did it our way, by UN resolution, multilateral action, with justification (WMDs) and after diplomacy hadn't worked. I'm not arguing the French position over Iraq was right, I don't think it was. I wanted there to be a UN resolution, and if Iraq didn't comply, to use multilateral force.
                        Smile
                        For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                        But he would think of something

                        "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

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                        • #72
                          Yeah you guys were so resolute and together in Bosnia. What a cluster****.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

                            Originally posted by Doddler
                            What's wrong with it being the sole world policeman? I'd certainly prefer the US to be sole policeman than to be hampered by the weakness of our continental neighbours when it comes to tough decisions.
                            That's easy for you to say. You don't have to pay for it.
                            I'm about to get aroused from watching the pokemon and that's awesome. - Pekka

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by TCO
                              The EU is dhimmified, pussified and Finlandized. They couldn't even take care of the Serbs without whining for us. They are like little brothers.
                              QFT.

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                              • #75
                                That's exactly it. The US thinks the ME needs an ass-kicking, and the EU thinks we need to respect sovereignty while trying to keep the peace. The US is the only one willing to ass-kick, not because it's the only one willing to try, but because it's the only one who thinks getting it's hands dirty is the right thing to do.

                                I sincerely believe you can't achieve anything by respecting one's sovereignty.

                                Each faction here has different interests which are irreconcilable. (wow! I am shocked I spelled that correctly at first try. I probably got the meaning wrong though ).

                                Iran is messing stuff up in the entire ME and has no reason to stop, unless it is seriously buttf*cked.

                                Syria should be scared some more into a peace deal with Israel, and Israel should be scared some more into a peace deal with Syria.

                                The pals need to be locked inside a wall and sort out what they want for them selves.

                                Lebanon should be cleared of Hezbullah and let flourish.

                                Turkey should get freaking accepted in the EU. It is such a joke that the EU wants influence but isn't ready to do anything for it.


                                You can not achieve peace and stability by talking. Talking gets you nowhere. Talking and reaching an agreement is against everyone's interests.

                                Syria doesn't want it.
                                Iran doesn't want it.
                                Hamas doesn't want it.
                                Israel doesn't want it.
                                Fatah doesn't want it.
                                Hezbullah doesn't want it.
                                Al-Qaeda doesn't want it.
                                Egypt and Saudia don't want things to be 'too rosy' to keep people busy with a common outside enemy.

                                The EU is like a retarded kid that gets into a wrestling ring and yells "why can't we all just talk and get along?"

                                Hell, you idiots.

                                No one wants to get along.

                                Even for Israel, 90% of whose people probably want peace and most of whom are willing to eventually concede the Golan and East Jerusalem - everyone are happier when hard choises are not to be made. It's just easier that way.

                                The EU actually knows this, and IMO only wants to play 'pretend'. The EU wants the political gains and friendships of arab states, without really sacrificing or risking anything.

                                Well it won't get them crap. And they will never be respected.

                                Russia has more things on the line in the ME. It is also more respected.
                                So is N. Korea and probably China.

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