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Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

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  • Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

    I had dinner tonight with the master of our college - who happens to have been the most senior civil servant in the cabinet office under Thatcher, Major and Blair (and earlier PMs, IIRC) and the author of the Butler Report on the evidence for going to war in Iraq - after a talk he gave on Europe's role as a counterpoint to the US. His general opinion seemed to be that:

    The demise of Russia as a major threat means the US has much less need of Europe, strategically;
    the US being strong enough to go it alone results in any co-operation, like NATO or the UNSC, being somewhat lopsided, with the balance of power residing in Washinton;
    this leads to the US preferring unilateral action, with the only consequences being those that affect the US (voting) public, whereas Europe tends to prefer multi-lateral action;
    importantly, however, they both need each other. The main reason being that due to their collonial past, European forces are not credible peacekeepers in Africa, whereas due to recent events, US peacekeepers will be unlikely to be credible in the Middle-East.

    His generally issue is with the EU being too wrapped up in its own domestic issues - immigration, subsidies, and suchlike - and Europe being stubborn and trying to throw its weight around (especially the French) when we don't really have the weight to throw. However he also points to the US being unwilling to listen to world opinion, seeming oblivious to the issues the rest of us care about. Partly, as one American in the audience observed, because US citizens are oblivious to it, as they just don't here it, with US news stations having pulled most European-based correspondents due to cost. He cited one question he asked Condolezza Rice as an example:
    "Were you ever in doubt on the legality of military action in Iraq?"
    "No, congress approved it"
    With no consideration on anything other than US law.

    How true is this, do you think? If Europe started co-operating with the US, more as a guiding partner than a counterpoint, and if the US people started to hear more about world opinion, would we have a more cohesive "western" policy, to address the common concerns of terrorism and any emerging threats? Could and should the EU be a counterpoint to the US? I can't help but think we have the same aims, and that a united front against terrorism and emerging threats would be much more effective, if only we could agree on the best way to reach those aims.
    Last edited by Drogue; February 1, 2007, 21:29.
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    For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
    But he would think of something

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  • #2
    Europe as a counter point to the EU?
    You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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    • #3

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      • #4
        Shouldn't the title be Europe as a counterpoint to the US?
        You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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        • #5
          "Were you ever in doubt on the legality of military action in Iraq?"
          "No, congress approved it"
          With no consideration on anything other than US law.


          Meh. Most of the legal questions of the administration refer to US law (e.g. wiretapping). That's her natural frame of reference.

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          • #6
            ok so your thread title meant europe as a counterpoint to the US not the EU? *that* would make sense.

            I think it would be better to stop thinking merely in terms of US-european relations and broaden the concept towards an effort to build a huge coalition of stable democracies all over the world.

            They would seldom agree on anything with sufficient consensus to take action but when they *did* they would be unstoppable.

            In any case, I think perhaps less military adventurism would be a good thing since it seems the most important and decisive issues demanding such actions have lately also been the ones least likely to be acted on decisively anyway. (im thinking nuclear proliferation in north korea in particular)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kuciwalker
              Meh. Most of the legal questions of the administration refer to US law (e.g. wiretapping). That's her natural frame of reference.
              Sorry, I forgot to add, she deferred the question to her legal team, to answered as such. It was the official line, not a slip of the tongue.

              Originally posted by Krill
              Europe as a counter point to the EU?
              DanSed. Properly.
              Smile
              For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
              But he would think of something

              "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

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              • #8
                Thanks for the +3 Drogue

                no, the simple answer would be no, just because until the EU can speak with a unified voice the individual countires will keep up the infighting, and we won;t ever be able to keep up with the US and China, and later competitors, I feel.
                You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Geronimo
                  I think it would be better to stop thinking merely in terms of US-european relations and broaden the concept towards an effort to build a huge coalition of stable democracies all over the world.

                  They would seldom agree on anything with sufficient consensus to take action but when they *did* they would be unstoppable.
                  True, but if the EU and US can't agree on action on most issues now, would we ever take action if we all had to agree? Would the US not just go "we don't need you, we'll sort it ourselves?"
                  Smile
                  For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                  But he would think of something

                  "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry, I forgot to add, she deferred the question to her legal team, to answered as such. It was the official line, not a slip of the tongue.


                    Such a legal team would probably still be used to considering the actions of the US in the context of US, not international law. I don't see why they ought to assume legal questions are talking about international law.

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                    • #11
                      When she's in the UK on a state visit and meeting with politicians? I'd hope she'd know enough of world opinion to realise the rest of the world see's US military action in Iraq in the context of international law. Even if not, I think the answer shows an amazing lack of thought about the rest of the world, which was the point of the comment. The current administration does not care, at all, what the rest of the world thinks. Which is a major problem for some parts of foreign policy, considering the US reputation in the Middle-East.
                      Smile
                      For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                      But he would think of something

                      "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Could and should the EU be a counterpoint to the US?


                        No need to address the should, as the EU falls woefully short on the could. Europe will be lucky to hold its own against the Muslim world in coming years. Thoughts of challenging powers like America and China are laughable barring a drastic reversal of European demographic and philosophical trends...
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                        • #13
                          True, although if the should is true and believed to be so by voters here, we could easily build a large military, and the US will have problems in the Middle-East as it's reputation is so bad. EU peacekeepers could help a lot, as they don't bring as much negative connotations as US ones, after Iraq.
                          Smile
                          For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                          But he would think of something

                          "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

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                          • #14
                            Europe doesn't have the will to support a large military buildup. Hence the comment...

                            Thoughts of challenging powers like America and China are laughable barring a drastic reversal of European demographic and philosophical trends...
                            KH FOR OWNER!
                            ASHER FOR CEO!!
                            GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                            • #15
                              Point taken. Although this isn't just militarily. Should we economically try to be a counterpoint to the US? When it comes to things like the WTO, pollution, international development and free trade, should we accept the US way of doing things, try to build consensus or try to force the debate and international policies closer to the European ideal? How should we do this?
                              Smile
                              For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                              But he would think of something

                              "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                              Comment

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