Europe as a counterpoint to the US - a talk by Lord Butler

[Krill]

European politicians don't have the will to support a large military.

I ain't so sure about Johny European, though.

[Drake Tungsten]

Should we economically try to be a counterpoint to the US?

I don't see why you wouldn't. It would probably make Europe and the US better off in the long run.

When it comes to things like the WTO, pollution, international development and free trade, should we accept the US way of doing things, try to build consensus or try to force the debate and international policies closer to the European ideal?

Hard to answer this one, as it would depend greatly on the specific issue and how much ability Europe has to "force international policies" closer to the European ideal. You have more power in the WTO than you do on pollution, for example...

[Verto]

Europeans need to throw off the shackles of uselessness and at least pretend to be the descendents of the Roman, British and French empires (but not the Germans ... and all those other minor powers, you can act empowered too, although rather unjustifiably )

Conquerors, not bureaucrats!

[TCO]

Why are peacekeepers seen as an important item? That is such a wimpy attitude. Comes from only doing that (Brits accepted...)

[DanS]

If Europe started co-operating with the US, more as a guiding partner than a counterpoint, and if the US people started to hear more about world opinion, would we have a more cohesive "western" policy, to address the common concerns of terrorism and any emerging threats?

I do not recall that world opinion has ever seriously impacted the views of US voters, even if the voters knew of that opinion. At a minimum, it seems like a novel approach to take for Europe.

[Drake Tungsten]

Europeans don't represent "world opinion", anyway. They're even farther from the norm than we are.

[Harry Tuttle]

"With no consideration on anything other than US law."

Won't someone think of the internationalists?!?!

[DanS]

As for use of coercion, that's probably a better bet, although I would suggest that it usually doesn't work. For every greenhouse gas issue -- which I think the US may lose by the weight of the economics -- there is a steel tariff issue. That goes both ways of course. Airbus, dumping, etc. The list is long.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
"With no consideration on anything other than US law."

Won't someone think of the internationalists?!?!

Well if you won't stick to international laws, you expect everyone else to stick to WTO rules, or intellectual property rights law, or nuclear proliferation, or any other international law the US tends to push for? Would you have a problem if Russia started to sell Iran nukes? Of course you would. International law has a purpose, and there are proper, international routes to go through before certain actions are legal to take, such as selling nukes, putting up tariffs, selling cheap drugs or military action against other nations.

If you've signed up to an international law, I reckon it's quite an important question of whether or not you break it. I'm not saying the US categorically did, but the question is a worthy one. I know the UK government looked at this *a lot* before we went into Iraq, as it was a key question to us.

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Europeans don't represent "world opinion", anyway. They're even farther from the norm than we are.

Well, world opinion in the form of the UN. Most other countries would bow to the UN in matters such as military action in other countries.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by DanS
As for use of coercion, that's probably a better bet, although I would suggest that it usually doesn't work. For every greenhouse gas issue -- which I think the US may lose by the weight of the economics -- there is a steel tariff issue. That goes both ways of course. Airbus, dumping, etc. The list is long.

I completely agree. I'd be very much up for dumping the CAP and most, if not all, subsidies and tariffs, including defence subsidies, if the US did the same. I'm a huge fan of unilateral action on economic issues - pollution, reduction of tariffs, agricultural subsidies, etc. Would solve many problems.

[TCO]

How can we get the yuropeans to accept the death penalty? I mean not accept us having it, but get it back for themselves, too...

[DanS]

Basically, for Europe, this whole issue seems to revolve around how Europe can influence the actions of the US, preferably for free or very low cost or inconvenience to itself.

[TCO]

Originally posted by DanS
Basically, for Europe, this whole issue seems to revolve around how Europe can influence the actions of the US, preferably for free or very low cost or inconvenience to itself.

They're like little crying guilt-trippers. I think they have penis envy for our military also. Buncha war gamers, with no real military.

[Krill]

TCO, if you're going to troll at least do itt in style...

[TCO]

We should beat kids too. Even not our own. Good for them.