Name history's top 5 generals:

[Alexander I]

Here's 5 more greats that people don't think of as often.

El Cid
Cao Cao
Charles Martel
Nebuchadnezzar
James Longstreet

[Ned]

Speaking of generals who were doing well until their last battle, think if Custer.

[notyoueither]

I wouldn't say top 5, but General Sir Arthur William Currie was good. Certainly among the best of the Great War.

[notyoueither]

Manstein
Caesar
Temujin
Nelson
Lots of others

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
molly, one could argue that Hannibal's earlier successes were primarily due to the incompetence of the Roman commanders. Scipio was an excellent general and beat Hannibal even up on Hannibal's home turf.

Only after Hannibal had spent quite some considerable time defeating Roman and non-Roman forces across the Western Mediterranean.

And defeating a numerically superior Roman army on Roman soil- 80 000 Roman infantry and 6-7 000 horse against Hannibal's 40-45 000 foot soldiers and 8-10 000 horse.

There is a reason that Cannae is still studied in military colleges and is famous down the ages in a way that Zama is not.

I could go into some detail about Zama and after, about Hannibal's problems with Carthaginian politicians, about betrayal by Numidians, about having to rely on mercenaries, but they're all beyond the scope of this thread.

If you think that Scipio Africanus was a greater general than Hannibal overall, then make the case, and don't simply rely on his beating Hannibal at Zama to prove your argument.

Napoleon was beaten more than once too.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by molly bloom

There is a reason that Cannae is still studied in military colleges and is famous down the ages in a way that Zama is not.

You know, I have to agree with Molly Bloom on this one.
I think Hannibal was the better commander overall, but by the time of Zama, his circumstances were quite poor, and his forces depleted.

Scipio took advantage of this weakness to attack.

[Ned]

Was Zukov's victory at Stalingrad due to his great generalship, or the stupidity of Hitler? Cannae had ingredients of both.

BTW, the Romans lost at Andrianople in almost the same way they lost at Cannae. They got surrounded and attacked from the rear by cavalry even while they were winning the infrantry battle.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Ned
BTW, the Romans lost at Andrianople in almost the same way they lost at Cannae. They got surrounded and attacked from the rear by cavalry even while they were winning the infrantry battle.

You can chalk that up to Fritigern's warrior instincts, and Valens' folly.

[One_more_turn]

Cao Cao's army was spectacularly wiped out at the Battle of Red Cliff in 208AD. This battle is still household name in China, thanks to the Romance of Three Kingdoms that greatly dramatized his defeat.

In 219AD, he was run out of the strategically important Hanzhong region by Liu Bei with a much smaller army.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by One_more_turn
Cao Cao's army was spectacularly wiped out at the Battle of Red Cliff in 208AD. This battle is still household name in China, thanks to the Romance of Three Kingdoms that greatly dramatized his defeat.

In 219AD, he was run out of the strategically important Hanzhong region by Liu Bei with a much smaller army.

Yes, that's the one. He is a fascinating individual.

[TheStinger]

Nelson was a great military commander

[Saras]

although not a general, technically

[TheStinger]

Yeah thats why I used military commander, although I think the term should not be confined to land forces only.

Nelson's victory had consequnces more far reaching than many of those mentioned.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Alexander01


You can chalk that up to Fritigern's warrior instincts, and Valens' folly.

But the point to remember here is that history does not record the Goth commander as an all time great. They record the Roman commander as an all time idiot.

But what happened at Cannae and Andrianople were virtually the same thing.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Ned


But the point to remember here is that history does not record the Goth commander as an all time great. They record the Roman commander as an all time idiot.

But what happened at Cannae and Andrianople were virtually the same thing.

I think Hannibal had the rest of his career to augment his reputation up until then, and Adrianople was the high point of fame for Fritigern.

Plus, Rome had the rest of its history to stew over Hannibal, whereas it was approaching darker times at Adrianople. I think the Romans have had a lot to do with Hannibal's fame. He became their boogeyman.