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  • #76
    Originally posted by DinoDoc
    War Crimes
    "Total War" maybe, but not war crimes. Here are the orders:

    ... IV. The army will forage liberally on the country during the march. To this end, each brigade commander will organize a good and sufficient foraging party, under the command of one or more discreet officers, who will gather, near the route traveled, corn or forage of any kind, meat of any kind, vegetables, corn-meal, or whatever is needed by the command, aiming at all times to keep in the wagons at least ten day's provisions for the command and three days' forage. Soldiers must not enter the dwellings of the inhabitants, or commit any trespass, but during a halt or a camp they may be permitted to gather turnips, potatoes, and other vegetables, and to drive in stock of their camp. To regular foraging parties must be instructed the gathering of provisions and forage at any distance from the road traveled.

    V. To army corps commanders alone is intrusted the power to destroy mills, houses, cotton-gins, &c., and for them this general principle is laid down: In districts and neighborhoods where the army is unmolested no destruction of such property should be permitted; but should guerrillas or bushwhackers molest our march, or should the inhabitants burn bridges, obstruct roads, or otherwise manifest local hostility, then army commanders should order and enforce a devastation more or less relentless according to the measure of such hostility.

    VI. As for horses, mules, wagons, &c., belonging to the inhabitants, the cavalry and artillery may appropriate freely and without limit, discriminating, however, between the rich, who are usually hostile, and the poor or industrious, usually neutral or friendly. Foraging parties may also take mules or horses to replace the jaded animals of their trains, or to serve as pack-mules for the regiments or bridges. In all foraging, of whatever kind, the parties engaged will refrain from abusive or threatening language, and may, where the officer in command thinks proper, give written certificates of the facts, but no receipts, and they will endeavor to leave with each family a reasonable portion for their maintenance.

    VII. Negroes who are able-bodied and can be of service to the several columns may be taken along, but each army commander will bear in mind that the question of supplies is a very important one and that his first duty is to see to them who bear arms. ...

    – William T. Sherman, Military Division of the Mississippi Special Field Order 120, November 9, 1864

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Zkribbler
      "Total War" maybe, but not war crimes. Here are the orders:
      The prohibition against killing prisoners of war is one of the oldest war crimes, dating back at least to theAmerican Civil War. Other prohibitions, such as sparing civilians, came into international law in partbecause of the global revulsion following General Sherman's march through Georgia during that CivilWar. Gen. Sherman avoided the Confederate Armies and instead killed civilians in the streets and burnedtheir homes. The existence of war crimes can have a deterrent effect even in wars that seem total to thecombatants. For example, in the recent civil war that raged through Bosnia and Herzegovina, civilianswere, for the most part, spared. The huge number of displaced persons in Bosnia today attests to the factthat there was no Gen. Sherman targeting them. To be sure, the forced deportation of civilians is one ofthe newer war crimes-technically, a "crime against humanity"-but it is of course a far less serious crimethan murder or genocide.



      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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      • #78
        You're right, Dino. Sherman ripped through Georgia, targetting civilian homes as well as military facilities.

        And there's that little matter of burning Atlanta, which sorta slipped my mind.

        But other than the link to which you cite, I wasn't able to find any claims that he killed civilians in the streets. He basically left them to starve. There were some instances, when fired upon by civilian opposition, his troops were too careful about who they shot back at.

        It's clear, Sherman saw civilians as part of the South's war effort and so, in his eyes, they were legitimate targets.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Zkribbler


          Sidenote: When Gen. Winfield Scott proposed this strategy at the beginning of the Civil War, he was replaced.
          ?

          Didn't know this.

          Clearly Lincoln was not yet willing to do what was necessary to win. I wonder what he was waiting for? The South to change its mind?
          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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          • #80
            Originally posted by LordShiva
            Qin wasn't really a general.
            Which is why I asked earlier in this thread whether the extent of conquests was even relevant. Ghenghis Khan and his successors conquered much of his empire by sending out armies under command of others. Qin (Chin) did the same. So did Louis XIV. So if the extent of conquests is a primary measure of the commander, then we should include those who conquered by management and direction as well as field commanders. The man who plans the strategy, assembles the resources and appoints the generals is more important, at times, that a skillful general.

            This is why Grant is a better overall commander than Lee.
            http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by DinoDoc
              War Crimes
              Specifically, he ordered that the only homes be targeted were the slave holding aristocracy/gentry.

              Frankly, I can't be arsed to give a rat's ass about them

              Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by DinoDoc

                [i]The prohibition against killing prisoners of war is one of the oldest war crimes, dating back at least to theAmerican Civil War. Other prohibitions, such as sparing civilians, came into international law in partbecause of the global revulsion following General Sherman's march through Georgia during that CivilWar. Gen. Sherman avoided the Confederate Armies and instead killed civilians in the streets and burnedtheir homes. http://anthonydamato.law.northwester...files/A982.pdf


                He avoided Confederate armies, and attacked confederate railroads, and in the course of supplying his army off the land hurt Georgias agricultural economy. Id like to see a reputable civil war historian or a primary source behind the accusation of killing civilians in the streets.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Ned


                  ?

                  Didn't know this.

                  Clearly Lincoln was not yet willing to do what was necessary to win. I wonder what he was waiting for? The South to change its mind?
                  theres a tremendous amount written on that subject actually. Lincoln wanted a soft war, and hoped he could win one, but eventually determined that a war on the Souths economy was better than continued mass slaughter on the field of battle.
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Zkribbler
                    You're right, Dino. Sherman ripped through Georgia, targetting civilian homes as well as military facilities.

                    And there's that little matter of burning Atlanta, which sorta slipped my mind.
                    Atlanta was a center of transportation, warehousing, and manufacturing, and he didnt have the troops to occupy it, he was hardly going to leave it intact. If we and our allies had managed to destroy the factories, warehouses, and railroads of say, Hamburg, with as few civilian casualties as Sherman inflicted at Atlanta, thered have been more Germans alive in '45.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Ned
                      Didn't know this.

                      Clearly Lincoln was not yet willing to do what was necessary to win. I wonder what he was waiting for? The South to change its mind?
                      The mentality at that time was "On to Richmond!" As in so many wars, both sides began the war thinking that victory was going to be quick and relatively bloodless.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Lonestar
                        Specifically, he ordered that the only homes be targeted were the slave holding aristocracy/gentry.
                        Show me where such an order was actually enforced. Because so far he seems only slightly better than a Serbian general. Though I am heartened to see that the military has instilled in you such a genuine regard for the lives of civilians caught up in military conflict.
                        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by DinoDoc
                          Show me where such an order was actually enforced. Because so far he seems only slightly better than a Serbian general. Though I am heartened to see that the military has instilled in you such a genuine regard for the lives of civilians caught up in military conflict.
                          How dare he specifically attack the Slaveholding aristocracy, just because they were the ones who started the war.

                          And incidently, this is covered in the books Lies Across America (By James W. Loewen) and The Soul of Battle: From Ancient Times to the Present Day, How Three Great Liberators Vanquished Tyranny by Victor Davis Hanson. Both of which could be summed up with (1) Sherman wasn't as bad as the pro-confeds would have you believe and (2) The *******s had it coming anyway
                          Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Lonestar
                            Both of which could be summed up with (1) Sherman wasn't as bad as the pro-confeds would have you believe and (2) The *******s had it coming anyway
                            So he didn't commit war crimes of the sort we fought a war with Serbia over but if he did the South deserved it anyway. You sound like an apologist for Henry Wirz.
                            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              There's a difference between killing so poor villagers and looting the slaveholders who started the war. It makes me sad that you do not see the moral difference between the two.
                              Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Looting slave holders?

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