Chavez once again porves he's a tin pot dictator in the making.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

That's not realistic. I think the worker gets paid less in a capitalist system and he also has to pay more for the things he buys.

Ahh thats a different slant. If you think a worker is getting exploited because they are not getting enough for their labour and the capitalist charges too much for their produced goods, thats an understandable position.

If your hope is to raise wages for "workers" and lower prices heck anyone can support that. A good union can do the former ( I grew up in a strong union environment and both my parents were union members).

As for the price thing I find that the regulated market usually works that out as long as monopolistic practices are curtailed

------------------------------------

BUt this was NOT what you had been saying previously. Your statements had been that a worker is exploited by the owner of the means of production-- THis was a given with no exception if the worker happened to be very well paid

[Flubber]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
so you guys are more interested in talking about communism in general than in the fact that in Venezuala you can be fined for a comedy routine that insults Chavez?

It was so silly that I cannot imagine anyone defending it. So there seems to be little to discuss. It just seems to be overzealous actions by friends of Chavez that is not a shock in a one-man rule situation.

If someone chooses to defend/explain it, I would engage on it but frankly it seems just too silly

[pchang]

Plus a lot of idealism

Kid says he doesn't think laziness is much of a problem. If he had seen what I saw in China, he would know that laziness is a huge problem. Experience and cynicism. Are they inextricablly linked?

[Flubber]

Re: Plus a lot of idealism

Originally posted by pchang
Kid says he doesn't think laziness is much of a problem. If he had seen what I saw in China, he would know that laziness is a huge problem. Experience and cynicism. Are they inextricablly linked?

Perhaps-- Anyone that is around a while SEES that you workers with real incentives that they value will work harder and better, innovate more etc etc. Without incentives people tend to punch time

[Kidlicious]

I'm all for incentives. They have to be set up right though. Where I were they're all screwed up. There's all kind of work that has to be done and if you do it you lose out on your incentives and the other employees look more productive than you. We all kind of laugh about it, but I'm usually the one doing the "unproductive" work since the incentive is not that good and I don't plan to stay there long.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
But bottom line for both of you is that I cannot get my head around the idea if the state pays someone $20 per hour for a certain type of labour while a private company pays $40 for similar labour in the same city, its the higher paid guy that is getting exploited and somehow this is an injustice.

If I didn't think that people would get paid more in a communist system I wouldn't be a communist. Does that help? You just don't seem to believe that it can work better for the worker.

I also have a hard time with the idea that I am "forced" to take a wage by the nasty capitalists.THat is partly colored by my experience here in boomtown Alberta. People heere quit jobs on a whim since they know there are lots of jobs

Well there's also people who have to dig through gargage for recyclable material for 85 cents a day so yeah when there is a boomtown workers have a much better situation, but not always.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Flubber



It was so silly that I cannot imagine anyone defending it. So there seems to be little to discuss. It just seems to be overzealous actions by friends of Chavez that is not a shock in a one-man rule situation.

If someone chooses to defend/explain it, I would engage on it but frankly it seems just too silly

Since the govt did it, Im sure some of the govts defenders could defend it. they could say A. its a little girl whose being victimized, thank goodness Ven has a law that would stop that (ISTR Guev defending the law in the first place by discussing USA right wing pundit scandelmongering in the '90s) B. The comedian is part of the right wing plot to control the media, all right wing in Vene for years, so he deserves this C. There is just as bad done in right wing states, the Lat Am elite and their neocon defenders just dont like this cause its being done by a leftist,

Whatever.

And aside from defending theres the open question - does this hint at leading to further crackdowns, or is it a one off?

Im sure theres a lot more new we could say than we could in a "cap vs com" debate.

[Kidlicious]

I won't defend it. I hope they don't make him pay the fine. Now it's up to Che.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

If I didn't think that people would get paid more in a communist system I wouldn't be a communist. Does that help? You just don't seem to believe that it can work better for the worker.

It actually helps a lot. Self-interest is easy to comprehend. And I have serious doubts it would work better for the worker.

I tend to be suspicious of state-run businesses generally, mainly becuase then ones I have seen seem to be more bloated and inefficient than MOST corps. If all the production nd service functions move form private profit driven businesses to government control, I fear there would be less "stuff" produced and less services provided.

If thats the case, we are talking about dividing up a smaller pie.

You will likely dispute my belief that less will be produced. BUt the reality I see is that profits and bonuses and wealth can serve as big incentives for a LOT of people to innovate, excell or whatever.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
I tend to be suspicious of state-run businesses generally, mainly becuase then ones I have seen seem to be more bloated and inefficient than MOST corps. If all the production nd service functions move form private profit driven businesses to government control, I fear there would be less "stuff" produced and less services provided.

I prefer the idea of worker control with incentives and guidelines from the government. That way workers can hold each other accountable and work together to make all of their lives better.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I prefer the idea of worker control with incentives and guidelines from the government. That way workers can hold each other accountable and work together to make all of their lives better.

A structure that is entirely possible without a revolution. I think the problems can arise when a given business suddenly finds it needs 30% less workers . Without layoffs the health of the entire business is in jeopardy while doing the layoffs is unpalatable for most of the workers

[pchang]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I prefer the idea of worker control with incentives and guidelines from the government. That way workers can hold each other accountable and work together to make all of their lives better.

Then you are limiting yourself to small companies and small projects. That does not work with large numbers of people. I have worked at employee owned businesses, and the whole thing falls apart once you reach a certain size.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
A structure that is entirely possible without a revolution.

That would be nice, but I'm expecting a fight from at least some people.

I think the problems arise when a given business suddenly finds it needs 30% less workers . Without layoffs the health of the entire business is in jeopardy while doing the layoffs is unpalatble for most of the workers

First, I think a communist system would be much more stable. I don't think there would be as much need for labor mobility.

Second, when there are too many workers in a unit each worker will get less so there will be motivation for some workers to move elsewhere.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by pchang


Then you are limiting yourself to small companies and small projects. That does not work with large numbers of people. I have worked at employee owned businesses, and the whole thing falls apart once you reach a certain size.

That's true. I don't expect efficiency in large organizations, but then the trend is for smaller organizations.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kidicious


We know about safety nets, especially the poorest among us. We want something better.

Well that is a major concession. I assume you actually will listen to people who point out how productive free market economies are and would be willing to listen to ways to "integrate" all into sharing the benefits of such economies. I also assume that you will listen when we point out the problems of state monopolies and lack of economic freedom.