Chavez once again porves he's a tin pot dictator in the making.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


That's why I said originally that there's no way you will easily change your mind. You cant even understand what the hell I'm saying.

I think very few people can understand fully what you are saying. You take as a given many things that most other people would consider a major point of debate.

My mind continues to be open to new ideas. My views change as time passes and I obtain new information and arguments.

But your failure to convince me should be disheartening to you. I am educated, open-minded, very middle class. I am the very type of person you will need to convince of the merits of your plans if they are to succeed . . . or do advocate other means of implementation that do not involve consent or agreement by the majority of the people

Originally posted by Kidicious


Well no, I'm sure your experience is quite different from mine, and someone in Venezuela probably has quite a different experience still.

WE all have different experiences but when you say that labour jobs do not compensate well, I HAD to point out that that is not always the case. Of course you would say theat even 200K for a cook is insufficient if the oil wells around the camp are producing millions of dollars a day

[Kidlicious]

Let me give you a real world example. I work in the service industry now on a one on one basis. I reciever between 5 and 10 dollars per customer. The customer pays on average 200 dollars. Now I'm not saying there aren't other expenses besides my labor. I'm saying that in a communist society my pay would be a lot more and if I needed that service it would be cheaper.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
But your failure to convince me should be disheartening to you. I am educated, open-minded, very middle class. I am the very type of person you will need to convince of the merits of your plans if they are to succeed . . . or do advocate other means of implementation that do not involve consent or agreement by the majority of the people

No. I understand that you have a big interest in the status quo. That's what I understand. You're very biased. And we don't need to convince you.

WE all have different experiences but when you say that labour jobs do not compensate well, I HAD to point out that that is not always the case. Of course you would say theat even 200K for a cook is insufficient if the oil wells around the camp are producing millions of dollars a day

Sure. I'd like to have one of those jobs. I'm starting to understand how hard it is being a single parent though. I'm just in a situation where I don't have a reliable baby sitter.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Let me give you a real world example. I work in the service industry now on a one on one basis. I reciever between 5 and 10 dollars per customer. The customer pays on average 200 dollars. Now I'm not saying there aren't other expenses besides my labor. I'm saying that in a communist society my pay would be a lot more and if I needed that service it would be cheaper.

Fair enough -- so perhaps you are exploited-- I would never say that exploitation does not happen on an individual basis

When in private practice I was always salaried. I could conceivably bill customers less than I was paid and they would not expect a refund. Some years I billed far in excess of my pay-- other years the gap was closer. But they had done the marketing to obtain the work and I never begrudged them their cut -- Why would I ? If I agree to sell a year of my labour for 50 K that was my decision. If you agreed to a set piece rate for your work, why should you get more? Are your skills so valueless taht they command $5 or are you just a bad negotiator?



Of course you will state that we are economically compelled to work for someone at the wages they set. Some people feel they are in that circumstance but they always have options

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

No. I understand that you have a big interest in the status quo. That's what I understand. You're very biased. And we don't need to convince you.

Who do you need to convince?


I accept you don't need to convince me personally but I would think that you would need to convince the bulk of the middle class or you wouild never find yourself in a position to implement anything.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

I'm starting to understand how hard it is being a single parent though. I'm just in a situation where I don't have a reliable baby sitter.

I understand it is tough. AS a parent of two children with a wife .. . and help from visiting grandparents, I see how much work is involved. I quite sincerely wish you the best.


But as a parent, I want my children to grow up with the freedoms I have. I want them to have the opportunity to better their situation through their own hard work

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

No. I understand that you have a big interest in the status quo. That's what I understand. You're very biased. And we don't need to convince you.

Less of an interest than you might think. I work for a wage and own no means of production. I do have a healthy self-interest and am biased in favor of democracy. Even while I sometimes doubt the wishes of the majority, I am generally prepared to abide by them

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
Are your skills so valueless taht they command $5 or are you just a bad negotiator?

No, I have good skills. I can't do some of the higher paying jobs because I would have to travel a lot. I also have no car and other problems. Things haven't being going my way for a long time.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


Who do you need to convince?


I accept you don't need to convince me personally but I would think that you would need to convince the bulk of the middle class or you wouild never find yourself in a position to implement anything.

I really don't think we have to convince anyone. I think people will become dissatisfied with the current system and that they will seek out an alternative.

I'm just saying, your not really a young man, and I guess you make a lot of money. I don't expect you personally to change your mind. Some people in your situation will change their mind but I just don't picture you personally changing your mind.

Generally I would expect younger people with less money to support our cause.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
But as a parent, I want my children to grow up with the freedoms I have. I want them to have the opportunity to better their situation through their own hard work

I certainly understand that.

[lord of the mark]

so you guys are more interested in talking about communism in general than in the fact that in Venezuala you can be fined for a comedy routine that insults Chavez?

[chequita guevara]

three pages!?! GAH!!!! Do you people think I'm made out of time!?!

[pchang]

You don't understand

He wasn't fined for insulting Chavez.


He was fined for not being funny.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
three pages!?! GAH!!!! Do you people think I'm made out of time!?!

I've been home sick, so I have a bunch of time right now.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious



I'm just saying, your not really a young man,

Hey -- I'm not yet 40

Originally posted by Kidicious

and I guess you make a lot of money.

Not really-- very middle class-- I own no means of production and I am an employee

Originally posted by Kidicious


I don't expect you personally to change your mind. Some people in your situation will change their mind but I just don't picture you personally changing your mind.

Based on the arguments you have posed so far, you haven't come close. To me, che presents better arguments usually or starts from more understandable premises.

But bottom line for both of you is that I cannot get my head around the idea if the state pays someone $20 per hour for a certain type of labour while a private company pays $40 for similar labour in the same city, its the higher paid guy that is getting exploited and somehow this is an injustice.

I also have a hard time with the idea that I am "forced" to take a wage by the nasty capitalists.THat is partly colored by my experience here in boomtown Alberta. People heere quit jobs on a whim since they know there are lots of jobs

Originally posted by Kidicious


Generally I would expect younger people with less money to support our cause.

Isn't there some old saying about "only a fool is not a socialist in their youth"

Among the young you will find a lot more outrage about pretty much everything and lots of energy it is true