Such smugness, arrogance ...such insufferable moral superiority.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly

It does not say that our departure will "somehow end the resistance...."

"Many Democrat politicians and some from the Republican Party have stated a withdrawal from Iraq would end the insurgency there.

In a recent interview with CBS's "60 Minutes," House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, stated, "The jihadists (are) in Iraq. But that doesn't mean we stay there. They'll stay there as long as we're there."

That the "full" quote.

There are ways to mislead, Rufus. One is by not including in your quote the very thing you say is not in the quote.

[SlowwHand]

RUFUS!
Typical radical democrat.

[Ned]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Cyclotron
This will likely happen even if we "win" utterly. We are setting up a democratic government, or at least trying to - the odds of that government becoming a fairly radical religious one are very high, considering the already considerable influence various shia clerics and factions have in the government. This is what happens when you set up a democracy in a place that has been radicalized by sustained violence and poverty (read: Hamas elections in Palestine all over again).

[\QUOTE]

What I see, C, is a Sunni victory in one form or another. The Sunnis take the Triangle and Baghdad. They would take all of Iraq unless the Shi'ites call a truce. The reason I say this is that the Sunnis are simply lying in wait until the American leave. In interview with a Sunni resistance leader conducted recently in Jordan, the leader said that when the Americans leave, the Iraqi army would reform and govern the country.

Regardless of whether they take only the Triangle or all of Iraq, the Sunnis will have territory of their own and will be able to grant Al Qaeda basing rights and funding.

Therefore, in my view, leaving Iraq guarantees that Al Qaeda will have territory from which to launch attacks not only on the neighbors of Iraq but also on the rest of the world including the United States. It will be another Taliban-dominated Afghanistan. Unless something is fundamentally changed about Al Qaeda, we will have to again invade Iraq to destroy the Sunni government and Al Qaeda.

[Arrian]

Religious, possibly. But an enemy of the US and not an ally on the War on Terror, hardly. They will help.

Why do you believe this?

Further, I still don't understand why you think the Sunnis would come out on top in Iraq. They may be able to get control of the "Sunni triangle" but they're no longer in position to control the rest of the country. You believe a Sunni militant leader who alleges that the Iraqi army will reconstitute? Why? You find that plausible?

I think civil war followed by partition is fairly likely if we leave. Then again, I'm thinking that may be the outcome even if we stay a few more years.

-Arrian

[MRT144]

highly unlikely based on your flawed analysis. self asserting sunni power doesnt mean jack.

also it wont be a weak iraqi government, itll be iran backed shiite malitias that arent afraid to kill civilians.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Cyclotron



By the way, if you think that "al Qaeda types" are going to take over in our absence, you're insane. Al Qaeda is a Sunni group with few friends among the majority Shi'ite Iraq; if you think that the Sunni minority and al Qaeda are somehow going to take over the country despite the Shia and Kurds, you've got another thing coming. It just isn't going to happen.

Your position assumes that the Sunnis cannot win which is highly unlikely. Even today to Sunni resistance in the Sunni triangle is so fierce that we are considering withdrawing American troops. How in the world is a weak Iraqi government going to impose its will on the Sunnis if we cannot?

[Ned]

Originally posted by MRT144


are you completely blind to the shiite majority? i mean, are you really ignorant of the fact that the majority of the country, in the absence of order (either dictatorship or our own military) is somehow going to be overrun by the minority?

iran isnt going to let that fly and honestly the fact you think that its sunnis that running the majority of militias is ridiculous. the sunnis are the ones using terrorism, the shiites are using militia killing squads.

We have no control over the Sunni Triangle or the Sunni Baghdad today. How is that going to change if we leave. Are you suggesting that the feeble Shi'ites are going to do what we cannot do?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by MRT144
i dont fear terrorism at home nor abroad

I agree with everything you said except for this -- remember that little thing called 9/11??

[Arrian]

The "feeble" Shiites are, I suspect, not as feeble as you think, and furthermore are less concerned about protecting civilians. If the Sunnis actually attempt to take over Iraq, they will be opposed by both the Shiites (internal and external) and Kurds. If the Sunnis merely control the "Sunni triangle" they don't have much besides the old capital. The oil, the only really useful commodity available, lies outside the triangle.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Originally posted by MRT144
i actually think the reason the public sentiment has turned is because not only were we decieved by the reasons to go to war, we were also decieved by how things would progress and now that the wishful thinking has hit hard reality, the public is saying "hold up, wait a minute, what the hell is really going on?"

also i think another thing is that we havent had any reason at home to remain fired up about this. i dont fear terrorism at home nor abroad (never have, never will). im not seeing any short term positive tanglible results of our iraqi excursion. Im not seeing what we ultimately gain from this either (based on the actualy things that are happening there now)

This is somewhat similar to what happened in Vietnam. Johnson kept by giving us rosy pictures about the progress of the war. Then we had the Thet Offensive which changed the American opinion dramatically.

The problem with the Bush administration was/is its unwillingness to do what was necessary to win even while telling the American people that we were winning.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by MrFun



I agree with everything you said except for this -- remember that little thing called 9/11??

Terrorism happens. So do car crashes. Yet I drive to work every morning, and I don't spend much time scaring myself by thinking about crashing.

I'm not saying the gummint should take the same approach to both dangers, but I think mrt's got it right: you can't worry about such things all the time. It's unhealthy.

Don't you live in Iowa? Your town is prolly about 53,057th on the target list.

-Arrian

[SlowwHand]

If you're an American, you better feel watchful here or overseas, MRT.
It's not a new development. It was only illustrated and intensified by 9/11.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian


Why do you believe this?

Further, I still don't understand why you think the Sunnis would come out on top in Iraq. They may be able to get control of the "Sunni triangle" but they're no longer in position to control the rest of the country. You believe a Sunni militant leader who alleges that the Iraqi army will reconstitute? Why? You find that plausible?

I think civil war followed by partition is fairly likely if we leave. Then again, I'm thinking that may be the outcome even if we stay a few more years.

-Arrian

For the purposes of supporting al Qaeda, all that is required is that the Sunnis win the Triangle and perhaps Baghdad.

[MRT144]

the feeble shiities kill more sunnis than we do right now. youre years behind ned.

[SlowwHand]

MRT, you're in a damn dream world. Seriously.