Such smugness, arrogance ...such insufferable moral superiority.

[Zkribbler]

Not only more troops, but a strategy for victory. It is the latter element that seems missing here, which makes this exactly like Vietnam. Johnson kept sending more and more and more and more troops. What he did not do was adopt any strategy that would result in victory. That is why Johnson ultimately failed and brought his party to defeat in '68.

Well that...and remember Nixon had a "Secret Plan" for victory. It was to escalate.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


I thought the Iraqis are supposed to be on our side.

Who said it had to be an Iraqi city? Even now people are lobbying for Paris... inlcuding the dsisaffected Islamic yewts.

[Zkribbler]

Or Crawford

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

As long as Cindy S. is there fine by me.

[Lord Avalon]

MWA HA HAA HAAAA!

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Course you got contrary cusses like me that did not want to go to Iraq b/c I thought the basis was flimsy at best but argue now that we are there it is our obligation to see it to its end and see it done rightly. Course with cut and run being the fad looks like I'm in the minority again.

That would mean that you and I have agreed all along, although I admit I'm wavering now. I have to believe that "staying the course" has a chance of some sort of success. Thus far I believed that and therefore rejected the idea of "cut and run." As time passes and the situation fails to improve, however, I wonder if I was wrong.

edit: and yeah, you are a contrary cuss.

-Arrian

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

See heres the thing. I fully expected when we got into Iraq this would be at least a 10 year commitment. I fail to see why a hundred dead every month means anything compared to my expectations that we would be in a long long slog. Apparently every one else was listening to the few idiots saying we would be welcomed with arms open. Even were that the case I assumed troops stationed there for at least a 10 to 20 years stay.

Given that I don't think the casualty rates are worth saying the sky is falling. But thats just me. Absolutely nothin compared to Vietnam when I grew up.

[Arrian]

It's not just the casualty rates, though, Ogie. You have to consider the overal security situation. I actually agree with you re: US casualties. But we do not have control over the country, and Iraqis are dying at quite a clip (no exact figures on that, of course).

I don't look at it as solely about US blood & treasure. That's key, of course since I'm an American, but to me it's also about the Iraqis. If our presence, including casualties suffered by our forces, is really helping, then I'll stick with my original position (you broke it you bought it, stick it out). I'm not convinced that's the case, though.

-Arrian

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
As long as Cindy S. is there fine by me.

Naw, she's in N.Y. She was just found guilty for trying to present a petition to the U.S.'s mission at the U.N.

--I guess the Freedom to Petition our government got revoked when I wasn't looking.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Arrian
It's not just the casualty rates, though, Ogie. You have to consider the overal security situation. I actually agree with you re: US casualties. But we do not have control over the country, and Iraqis are dying at quite a clip (no exact figures on that, of course).

I don't look at it as solely about US blood & treasure. That's key, of course since I'm an American, but to me it's also about the Iraqis. If our presence, including casualties suffered by our forces, is really helping, then I'll stick with my original position (you broke it you bought it, stick it out). I'm not convinced that's the case, though.

-Arrian

And the point is 4 years of occupation is for crap. I agree it has been handled about as poorly as possible. The fact we didn't crack down secutiry wise (or were in a position to do so) immediatley following the fall of baghdad is monumentlally stupid. Allowing Sadr to pull his crap, having to retake Falllujah umpteen times etc.

Personallyost of Iraq is relatively quiet especially the Kurdish sections. The problem is the boundaries and intermingled areas of Sunnis and Shiite. I think anyone who says conclusively one way or another what is going to happen is full of ****e 'cept it is prettymuch a given that pulling out will result in the worst possible outcome of all.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Naw, she's in N.Y. She was just found guilty for trying to present a petition to the U.S.'s mission at the U.N.

--I guess the Freedom to Petition our government got revoked when I wasn't looking.

she was found guilty of trespassing - not every federal facility is open to the public, and some you cant enter without permission. If she wanted to mail it to them Im sure there would have been no problem. It wouldnt have been as good a photo op though.

[Elok]

WHOA! Stroke of genius. Listen to this:

People have been talking about escalation, and how it wasn't the solution. So, what's the alternative to escalation? Well, if I can't use an escalator, I look for an elevator. Could it be, I wondered, that we need to *elevate* the situation in Iraq?

And I know what you're thinking: "that's asinine." But think about it--how do you elevate a situation? By moving it into a higher altitude. And what's the nearest location to Iraq with a higher altitude? Mountainous Iran, which is mostly Shiites.

So, all we need to do is move the Iraqis into Iran, and the combined Shiite crazies will annihilate the Sunni crazies before turning on each other due to the fact that nobody, in any country, likes immigrants. Easy as that.

[Drake Tungsten]

inlcuding the dsisaffected Islamic yewts.

Were you watching My Cousin Vinnie this afternoon, too?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Well that...and remember Nixon had a "Secret Plan" for victory. It was to escalate.

Z, I assume you are too young to remember that election. Nixon's plan was to "end the war" with honor. After the election, he announced the plan: Vietnamisation. Withdrawals began immediately. All but a handful of troops were out by Jan. 1, 1973.

So much for you biased slam of Nixon. So much for liberalism and history. Almost as much a oxymoron as "Democratic Party."

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Cranky


other than bullets, mortars, IED's and lots and lots of AK-47's

The ruins of ancient Babylon were kind of cool though Saddam tried to turn it into a theme park in the 1970's so most of the actual historical sights were demolished to make way for completely unhistoric concrete monstrocities.