Being a good person.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yes, but when one is discussing things (including Life, The Universe and Everything), one makes... statements.

I have no problem with statements, but I do have a problem with the types of statements that get thrown around in metaphysical and ethical debates.

If we're discussing the state of the economy or troop levels in Iraq or other such concrete, real life things, people cite sources and documents; they attempt to show the validity of their data.

But in debates about the nature of the universe, somehow, this requirement disappears. Anyone's opinion is valid and there is no need to back up what one says, no need to show proof of a premise.

This discrepancy confuses me greatly. Surely when making statements about the very nature of the universe it would be even more important to show that you're not just pulling **** out of your ass! But no, with metaphysics, if someone says something that sounds profound, we all nod our heads and say, "mmm," without actually asking for any proof.

Rufus says that eventually it all boils down to some platitude, some premise - and I don't disagree with that. But what I do disagree with is the method of valuing or judging one of these initial premises. If you start with nothing, nothing at all except a platitude, what valid tools are you left with to judge this platitude?

People use feelings, of course. How such a statement resonates in their mind, soul, whatever. The truthiness of it, even.

But I can't accept such evaluations. I think there can be only one valid premise to begin a discussion about the nature of good and evil, and only one valid tool to find this premise.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


Yes, but when one is discussing things (including Life, The Universe and Everything), one makes... statements.

Deeds are done in your everyday life. Apolyton is, by its very nature, not RL. It's a discussion forum.

Which is why I generally consider Poly, like all discussion forums, of extremely limited usefullness in addressing Big Issues like that, and try to confine my discussions of religion to issues of ritual, text, and pointing out that Judaism exists and is an alternative.

In this instance, I was merely lending support to Lorizels reluctance to accept what he calls platitudes, which I thought, perhaps incorrectly, hinted at an existentialist POV.

[Arrian]

But in debates about the nature of the universe, somehow, this requirement disappears. Anyone's opinion is valid and there is no need to back up what one says, no need to show proof of a premise.

That irritates me at times as well, but the basic fact is that we don't have the sort of data on the "nature of the universe" that we do on, say, the 2006 MLB season. Further, some of the data we do have is probably beyond most of us, because we're not physicists, etc. So while I can construct a very good fact-based argument around the idea that J. Morneau was a terrible choice for 2006 AL MVP, I cannot construct the same sort of argument in regards to the origin of the universe. Sure, I can link to an article about the Big Bang, but that doesn't answer the question (if you accept the BB, what caused it? What created the matter that went boom? And, some probably want to know, why?)

So discussions about Life, The Universe, and Everything are necessarily fuzzier.

By the way, what do you mean by

I think there can be only one valid premise to begin a discussion about the nature of good and evil, and only one valid tool to find this premise.

? What is this premise, and what is the tool? Que?

-Arrian

[Lorizael]

That's in my *cough* grand manifesto.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Spec
The more life goes on the more a better person I am becoming.

If I had kept living my life the way I lived from 15 to more or so 22, I'd either be a wanted criminal, dead or in prison right now.
Name something you must not do, and I did it....except for killing someone. That's it. Everyother crap, I did.

OMG! You sick pervert!

[FrostyBoy]

Werna, just so you know, I was never really a Christian, it was just a 1-2 year thing. Great experience, great insight; ironically, before I was Christian, I was a good person; but after Christian, I have become a person I once hated (not from Christianity, but from my previous life before Christianity). Christianity didn't really have an effect on me, it was just like going to school and falling asleep at the desk. Of course, I believed in it, but everyday my logic would say "hey, something isn't right here, it doesn't match with everything else you have learned and everything else you have learned makes more sense".

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lorizael
Now, of course, an argument could be made that people should just "be themselves" and other such things, but this isn't the way I would want to live.

Being as how my life is the most important thing in my universe, and because I can never escape it or live without it, I feel that I owe it to myself to actually figure it out. I believe that I should come to terms with how it should work and that I shouldn't just rely on the accumulated experiences of my life to mindlessly guide me.

Well, whatever floats your boat

I sure stopped caring about trying to figure out my life through a rational process. There's nothing inherently superior in that, and it's quite a bore.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Sn00py
Werna, just so you know, I was never really a Christian, it was just a 1-2 year thing. Great experience, great insight; ironically, before I was Christian, I was a good person; but after Christian, I have become a person I once hated (not from Christianity, but from my previous life before Christianity). Christianity didn't really have an effect on me, it was just like going to school and falling asleep at the desk. Of course, I believed in it, but everyday my logic would say "hey, something isn't right here, it doesn't match with everything else you have learned and everything else you have learned makes more sense".

So, based on what principles or basic trend is your goodness?Do you think your falling from goodness has its roots in your Christian intermezzo?
Are you diong things that directly clash with your most inner conscience without doubt or is the central question if your concept of goodness can actually hold ground?

[FrostyBoy]

What I find bad: Britney Spears, Hitler, Anger
What I find good: Superman, Jesus, Ghandi, Nature


So the problem with me is, I don't want to be with a girl who does what I think is bad right? But now I am touching the edge of what I think is bad; so I wonder if I deserve to be with a girl who hasn't done those bad things and wants a guy who hasn't.

Now you see? It's guilt, I am not looking for girls mind you, but in the future I will, and I don't want to become what I don't want to be with.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Sn00py
What I find bad: Britney Spears, Hitler, Anger
What I find good: Superman, Jesus, Ghandi, Nature

Good choices. I truely hope you don't become like Britney.

So the problem with me is, I don't want to be with a girl who does what I think is bad right? But now I am touching the edge of what I think is bad; so I wonder if I deserve to be with a girl who hasn't done those bad things and wants a guy who hasn't.

Now you see? It's guilt, I am not looking for girls mind you, but in the future I will, and I don't want to become what I don't want to be with.

So, don't become it.
Or rather look for a brand of girl which is "good" in your terms and yet tolerant to how you are. A good degree of sincerity about yourself may do the trick.
If your trip to the dark side involves constant lying about what you do, what you think and who you really are, it's not going to work anyhow.

And why aren't you looking for girls? You're the same age as I am, I can' believe you don't hear the call. Or do you only mean you don't go out every evening just to find a woman?


Man, is this a fuzzy topic.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Well, whatever floats your boat

I sure stopped caring about trying to figure out my life through a rational process. There's nothing inherently superior in that, and it's quite a bore.

Nothing inherently superior, no, but I am much better at understanding things when I figure them out rationally. Also, *shrug* it ain't boring to me; I love dissecting my own brain.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Sn00py
What I find bad: Britney Spears, Hitler, Anger
What I find good: Superman, Jesus, Ghandi, Nature


So the problem with me is, I don't want to be with a girl who does what I think is bad right? But now I am touching the edge of what I think is bad; so I wonder if I deserve to be with a girl who hasn't done those bad things and wants a guy who hasn't.

Now you see? It's guilt, I am not looking for girls mind you, but in the future I will, and I don't want to become what I don't want to be with.

I had a friend who did what I thought was bad. But I really didn't have any other friends, so I kind of stuck with them. Beggers can't be choosers and all that.

I realize I'll never find someone as honest and good as I am. No person exists.

[Spec]

Originally posted by Lorizael
I love dissecting my own brain.

Then you'll move up to frogs I guess?

Spec.

[Lorizael]

Zing!