Dutch Christian Democrats win most seats

[Maniac]

Originally posted by atawa
The Christian union are only conservative on issues like abortion, euthanesia and shops being closed on sunday, apart from that they are moderate left wing.

Shops being closed on Sunday is left wing as well, as it protects small shop keepers against the big boys who can hire staff for all days of the week.

[atawa]

Originally posted by Maniac


Shops being closed on Sunday is left wing as well, as it protects small shop keepers against the big boys who can hire staff for all days of the week.

True, although both christian parties seem to be strongly against it mostly becouse of religious feelings.

[Robert]

I don't think the Freedom Party is something to be very worried about. I do not really approve their way of Islam-bashing but they have some points. I don't hope that my party (CDA) will make a coalition with them though. I concider them as extreme right as the SP is extreme left.

I never cared about 'losing' or 'winning' compared to last elections. A gained seat is not worth more then a seat you kept. In a democracy the governament should have the majority of the house. And the coalition should be stable. Therefor CDA/PvdA/CU is the only right coalition imho. And the CU should limit their demands, they're a small party after all.

I think the coalition should lead our nation like the past 4 years, though corrected to the left. Some stuff must be done about the new insurance system and I would like it if something can be done about the debts of some of the pourer families, surely if they're pulled into big debts by big companies. That's one of the biggest problems for the pour righ tnow.

I'm happy that Balkenende will stay Prime Minister. He's the only state-man we have right now, imho. He has had a steady course past years and he has reformed our social system and made it ready for the future. That wasn't a nice thing to do and he didn't make himself popular, but I have more trust in people who care less about being popular but more about doing the right thing.

Bos should leave. He's only looking for his ultimate job. He was looking much like Melkert yesterday evening. He was still bragging on how the left won, while he lost 25% of his seats. He should've shutted up. It is the SP that won, not 'the left' and surely not labor. The guy is laughable. He's the only person who's a stay in the way for a CDA/PvdA coaltion.

Rutte should go as well, btw. He's not the right person to lead the VVD.

@OZzy: CU and Freedom Party won't mix. I think that even CDA/Freedom Party won't mix. But it's true that left and right equal each other right now in the 2nd chambre of our parlement.

[Robert]

Originally posted by atawa


True, although both christian parties seem to be strongly against it mostly becouse of religious feelings.

CDA is against it mostly because of the small shop owners who will lose the competition with the big corporations if they have to keep the shops open. It's not a religious reason for the CDA. As a christian I don't care about shops being opened or closed either.

[atawa]

Originally posted by CyberShy


CDA is against it mostly because of the small shop owners who will lose the competition with the big corporations if they have to keep the shops open. It's not a religious reason for the CDA. As a christian I don't care about shops being opened or closed either.

I always thought that was just a good spin

[germanos]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
So a broad conservative coalition could govern, CDA, Freedom & Democracy, Freedom, & Christian Union would have enough.

In theory yes, but the Freedom Party will not be in any government. Nobody wants them, be they left or right. The Freedom Party is repressive, despite what the name suggests.

Originally posted by atawa

The main reason for concern is ... screwed up islamists and the extreme left... bullets come from the left in Holland...

sure, lump the left and islamists in one box, that'll teach them!

... in the latest survey around 50% of ethnic Maroccan youth was against democracy. We have been tolerant with these people long enough and it doesnt work, so time to try a different aproach.

Yeah, those dreaded youth who are against democracy. I've tried to find to what question they were actually anwering, but I can't find it. Nor can I find what age these youth are. Below 24, 18 or 16? Makes quite a difference. But I can see why they have little faith in democracy if a guy like Wilders gets 9 seats on a program that want to curb the building of mosques, ban the headscarf etc.
And there is a difference between tolerance and indifference. The latter is being thrown out for sure, but tolerance has never taken a firm foothold.

Living in the second most densly populated country in the world (after Bangladesh ) we have to be tough on immigration

This is such a convenient 'argument'. There are cities more populated then Holland. Think New York, Tokyo. There is no reason to curb immigration because of population density.

The problem with asylumseekers is that 80%+ are here only for the money, not due to political reasons or becouse of wars. How else would you call these people if not fortune seekers????

What is wrong with fortune seekers? Are you not a fortune seeker? IMO everybody is a fortune seeker.
I'm so baffled by the Liberal Party's stand on this, and their choice of words, because they are all for free trade and lifting the barriers for trade. But if there should be free trafic of goods, why shouldn't the same apply to people? If you don't want both, you're only paying lip-service to liberalism.
No, the real reason to curb the immigration of fortune seekers is to maintain our astonishing wealth at the expence of those who seek the same. Let them work in the sweatshops in Asia or Africa for pennies and make the big profits selling 80 euro jeans on the market here. Fish empty their waters with our big trawlers that have emptied the North Sea allready. But Oh No's if they dare to come and work here.

Those fortune seekers are probably willing to do your job for a quarter of your wage.
You are aware I hope that the global definition of poverty lies somewhere in the range of making less then $1 a day?

Originally posted by CyberShy
... the leftish parties have been insulting the leader of the CDA for 4 years, including cartoon in which he was masturbating in front of the mirror...

What a rediculous accusation that a cartoon in a weekly is now an insult by the leftist parties.

Originally posted by CyberShy
I don't think the Freedom Party is something to be very worried about. I do not really approve their way of Islam-bashing but they have some points.

Well, I´m on the other side of the fence. While they have some points, it´s scary it turns into Islam bashing.


(On a side note: It could have been worse though if Marco Pastors party (one NL) would have gained any seats. His comparison of our government ´not stepping up against muslims´ with the lack of action against Germans (sic) pre WWII was distatefull and a good sign of how far the paranoia has set in. Thankfully the voters didn´t fall for that and turned to Wilders´ Freedom Party,l who is moderate only in comparison.)

[johncmcleod]

originally posted by Datajack Franit:
How would you like to live with a minority refusing to integrate and segregating itself in your own country using its laws, language and social rules?

Is barring them from entering the country the only way to fix this? And this isn't the rhetoric being used. He just said that there were 'too many Muslims and mosques.' I find it problematic to say there are too many members of a certain religion. Especially if it's only 6% of the population. And the way he brought it up too, using cultural pride as a reason for being stricter on religious minorities, I think it's a little xenophobic. And a little too reminiscent of 70 years ago, IMO.

originally posted by Cybershy:
The Freedom Party is not against all muslims, it's against the extreme muslims and wants to moderate them. I think they can't be compared to De Winter in Belgium.

He said there were too many Muslims and Mosques period. He didn't make any such distinction.

originally posted by atawa:
Not a reason for concern, its about time someone stands up to the islamification of Holland. Religious freedom is all fine and dandy but not when it leads to hate, violence, and opression.

I think the notion of Holland is being Islamified with 6% of the population being Muslim is a little delusional. And I think it's quite unfair to restrict the freedom of an entire religious group just because of the views of a few extreme members. Over in the states we have the same thing, a few very extreme fundamentalist Christians whose beliefs also lead to hate, violence, and opression (watch the documentary Jesus Camp, it's about a summer camp that teaches kids to be soldiers for Christ), not to mention most Christians are intolerant of homosexuality for religious reasons, yet we're not going to take measures against Christianity.

originally posted by atawa:
I wouldnt call it fear, people are just fed up with large portions of (mainly Maroccan) immigrants who only seem to be here for the welfaresystem and in general make a nuisance of themselves. You must know that 20% of ethnic Maroccans have criminal records, and in the latest survey around 50% of ethnic Maroccan youth was against democracy. We have been tolerant with these people long enough and it doesnt work, so time to try a different aproach.

Like what? You're going to punish people for disagreeing with you? And I bet we could find much more white Dutch people living off of the welfare system than immigrants.

originally posted by atawa:
The problem with asylumseekers is that 80%+ are here only for the money, not due to political reasons or becouse of wars. How else would you call these people if not fortune seekers????

You have the same mentality as red-state Americans. What would you do if you were in their situation? If you lived in a country with no opportunity and nothing but poverty you'd do the same thing, you'd try to make a better life for yourself and move to a better place to live. Why be so hard on them? What is wrong with being a 'fortune seeker?' We're all fortune seekers, and I don't see why you're labeling the actions of what anyone would do in that situation as morally wrong. The US was founded by fortune seekers with the same idea in mind as these people, and we turned out ok.

I think it's interesting that the US and Europe are going through such similar issues in immigration. The difference is at least the Europeans have a little reason for fear, Americans have no reason whatsoever to have a problem with a Latino population that has a similar ideology and is hardworking and helps fuel our economy other than backwards xenophobia.

[Datajack Franit]

It is not a matter of "I don´t like having 6% of muslims, 4% would be better. But as atawa pointed out, some people coming from a specific ethnic and cultural background (muslim or not) refuse to adapt and integrate in their new home. Instead, they are trying to create their own ghetto, while calling people complaining about this racists.

I refuse to accept provocations of people saying that muslims themselves are dangerous or hurtful to a country, but there is a reason if some ethnic groups (asians, africans) are far better integrated than arab-muslims. And this can be explained only by understanding the background. These persons are coming mostly from despotic, un-democratic countries, now they had the chance to integrate themselves and live in the most liberal country IN THE WORLD. Isn´t that enough?

They had mosques, islamic schools, welfare checks and free speech, no matter if they are complaining about Israel bulldozing refugees camps in the Territories, or celebrating 9/11 in the middle of the street (we had a huge spontaneous party in Milan, right in front of the Cathedral, of arab-muslims celebrating, hugging and offering tea and biscuits on 9/11/2001, how would you like that to happen in your own country?)

We are offering democracy, free speech and a good quality of life. The message that conservative politicians are promoting is: if the best you can do is abusing our hospitality, getting yourself into criminal activities, demonstrating against our values, living as a parasite to our "infidel and immoral" society, then **** OFF AND GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRY NOW.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by germanos
What is wrong with fortune seekers? Are you not a fortune seeker? IMO everybody is a fortune seeker.
I'm so baffled by the Liberal Party's stand on this, and their choice of words, because they are all for free trade and lifting the barriers for trade. But if there should be free trafic of goods, why shouldn't the same apply to people? If you don't want both, you're only paying lip-service to liberalism.

Their argument very well may not be with the immigrants, but with the fact that the government is paying for them through welfare. So yea, that's a consistent argument. They would (i'd assume) have much less problem with them if they came and got a job instead of collecting a welfare check.

Personally I'm all in favor of looser restrictions on immigration, especially in this country but I'd also side (generally) with the pro-immigration side in Europe too. But I don't like the idea of people moving to a country just to live off its government programs.

[Sandman]

we had a huge spontaneous party in Milan, right in front of the Cathedral, of arab-muslims celebrating, hugging and offering tea and biscuits on 9/11/2001, how would you like that to happen in your own country?

I call BS on this.

[Robert]

What is wrong with fortune seekers?

Well, with being a fortune seeker is nothing wrong indeed. Though I think that a nation should be allowed to now and then shut the door for them and reorganise things first. I don't think that our country is right now the best place to accept much fortune seekers. There are already much problems between the native dutch and the new people (not blaming any of these groups). Not to mention that our social system can currently not carry many new pour people.

But you're right, being a fortune seeker is not a problem in itself, though I think that much people in Africa believe that Europe is heaven, and if they arrive they're stockpiled in old flats in backwards neighbourhoods where they are being abused by home-milkders (??) or end up in the prostitution. that's not a good thing for themselves as well.

What a rediculous accusation that a cartoon in a weekly is now an insult by the leftist parties.

Did you ignore my examples that came directly from the left parties on purpose?
Are you trying to change the topic on purpose?
Are you ignoring the fact that Balkenende has been heavily insulted by the left for 4 years, including leftish parties, magazines, etc. etc. And of course, the PvdA is not responsible for what Vrij Nederland publishes. Though it is really really really really childish that Bos is starting to cry after he was poked a little bit in a debate, for sure if you compare it to the garbage that Balkenende has been received for years.

Don't change the subject to the way I formulate it.

Well, I´m on the other side of the fence. While they have some points, it´s scary it turns into Islam bashing.

Well, that's a little bit scary indeed, I agree with you on that. though I think that there's much campaigning language being used by Wilders. I do not approve that and I think it's just plain stupid to do it, though I think it's not as worse as it seems. I may be wrong though.

I must say that the demagogy used by the left regarding the 'pour' in Holland are on the same level as his Islam bashing though.

[Datajack Franit]

Originally posted by Sandman


I call BS on this.

Yeah right, nobody ever heard of muslims making parties on 9/11

[germanos]

Originally posted by CyberShy


Don't change the subject to the way I formulate it.

If you express yourself poorly, don't blame me for pointing that out.

It's very difficult debating with you if you write nonsense and expect others to magicly understand you mean something different.

[germanos]

Originally posted by CyberShy
... I think that a nation should be allowed to now and then shut the door for ... fortune seekers...
Not to mention that our social system can currently not carry many new pour people.

These fortune seelers have no way into our welfare system. If anything these fortune seekers end up working in the greenhouses in the 'westland' etc.

... I think that much people in Africa believe that Europe is heaven

And for most of them it really is

and if they arrive they're stockpiled in old flats in backwards neighbourhoods where they are being abused by home-milkders (??) or end up in the prostitution. that's not a good thing for themselves as well.

I agree that most of them will live a hard life in Holland. There is no reason at all to envy them. But apparently these conditions are far preferable from what they come from (in their perception). It is a little patronizing to say to them that we keep them out of Holland for their own good. And it's fooling ourselves as well. We don't want them in here because we don't want them to have a piece of our elaborately stuffed cake.

I must say that the demagogy used by the left regarding the 'pour' in Holland are on the same level as his Islam bashing though.

Why are you trying to link these two things together? Should we just scrap the '+' and the '-' from the equation and say we're back at neutral: problem solved?
I really don't see what this comment has to add to the discussion.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit




Yeah right, nobody ever heard of muslims making parties on 9/11

There was famous footage (on CNN) of Muslim youth celebrating in the east of Holland on the day of the attacks.

This was proven bogus later on.