Texas lawmakers struck hard at illegal immigrants Monday

[Imran Siddiqui]

What is to stop these employers from hiring illegals in place of the newly legalized? Just because the newly legalized can go on welfare does not mean there will be any shortage of new illegals to take their place if things stay as they are on the border.

Cause the newly illegalized can become legal? When I'm talking about legalization, I'm not containing it specifically to those there now at the present. We were talking about hypothetically legalizing illegal immigration (which probably has the same amount of chance as legalizing drugs, FWIW), not simply granting amnesty to a group.

How are revenues going to increase when access to benefits for these people greatly increases with citizenship? And how can the government increase the hidden costs of hiring illegals?

Increased tax revenues in payroll and income taxes will far outstrip the benefits used. Most of these people have shown themselves to be industrious folks who are willing to work hard. I don't see them all just suddenly stop looking for work.

The government can easily increase the hidden cost of hiring illegals by increasing the penalties for hiring illegals or increasing the enforcement agency's numbers. Either will increase the costs of hiring illegals because the consequences are far graver.

[Whoha]

if there is no longer such a thing as illegal immigration the minimum wage/welfare laws will also have to be changed or they will be absolutely crushed by the amount of people coming here, looking for work or not.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Probably, but as states are moving to more of a workfare system, it won't be as horrid as you think.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Cause the newly illegalized can become legal? When I'm talking about legalization, I'm not containing it specifically to those there now at the present. We were talking about hypothetically legalizing illegal immigration (which probably has the same amount of chance as legalizing drugs, FWIW), not simply granting amnesty to a group.

What, so anyone who walks across the border gets amnesty? Can't you see the inherent problems with that?

Increased tax revenues in payroll and income taxes will far outstrip the benefits used.

I find that hard to believe. Do you have anything to back that up with? I've come across plenty of studies that state the exact opposite.

Most of these people have shown themselves to be industrious folks who are willing to work hard. I don't see them all just suddenly stop looking for work.

Possibly, but the problems usually arise with the lazy "Americanized" 2nd and 3rd generations. What do you do with them?

The government can easily increase the hidden cost of hiring illegals by increasing the penalties for hiring illegals or increasing the enforcement agency's numbers. Either will increase the costs of hiring illegals because the consequences are far graver.

But, if I understand the first part of your post, there will be no such things as illegals anyway.

[Imran Siddiqui]

What, so anyone who walks across the border gets amnesty? Can't you see the inherent problems with that?

They'd be subject to a cursory examination to see if they had criminal records or were terrorists, of course, but aside from that let them walk through and I don't see what problems you'd have with that.

I find that hard to believe. Do you have anything to back that up with? I've come across plenty of studies that state the exact opposite.

Like I said, do you think they'll drop on welfare as soon as they go legal? What new benefits will they get after legalization that will cost so much to outstrip the tax revenues they'll make?

Possibly, but the problems usually arise with the lazy "Americanized" 2nd and 3rd generations. What do you do with them?

Uh... what do you with them now? If they are born in the US, they are citizens. They already get all the benefits.

But, if I understand the first part of your post, there will be no such things as illegals anyway.

That was to Whoha who was talking about current amnesty. Because even under current amnesty measures you'll have a number of illegals (maybe half) who will decide to be legals so as not to live in hiding, who may have children who are citizens and don't want them to worry that their daddy may be deported, etc. A lot of them will get jobs (though probably min wage) with their work ethic. That's more tax revenue that you had before. That revenue can be used to increase enforcement, if you wish, to help entice other illegals to become legal and stop the enablers.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Ok im a bit slow onthe up take but how is an illegal working without a social security card? And in case that he does have a SS card then that would make him legal in the country. So i am a little confused how the illegals pay for my retirement. Considering that by the time im old enough to get retirement from social security it is stil going to be there. So just as i am clear i need explaining on how an illegal is paying ss taxes with out a ss card.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So i am a little confused how the illegals pay for my retirement.

Payroll taxes. Some employees or employers may fake SS numbers (if the employee does it the employer may look the other way)

[Mrs. Tuberski]

but at any point in time the ss agency will notice this is a fake ss number and fall on the employer Im sorry but even when looking for a low paying crap job ss numbers are checked they only time they arent is when the employer knows the person has no number so there fore im still confused at how they are paying into ss since the numbers dont exist to begin with

[Imran Siddiqui]

Mrs. Tubs, here is a good article on it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.

IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation.

Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

Oh, as response to your last post... SSA doesn't care that the numbers don't match. They take the money anyway.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
They'd be subject to a cursory examination to see if they had criminal records or were terrorists, of course, but aside from that let them walk through and I don't see what problems you'd have with that.

You don't see the huge potential for abuse of the welfare state? Hospitals are already closing down in border states because of deadbeat illegals. I suppose the feddle gummint is supposed to track all these people down and make them pay? Or do you just let them all suck the taxpayer dry until all the productive people pick up and leave?

What an incredibly naive proposal.

Like I said, do you think they'll drop on welfare as soon as they go legal?

As you pointed out - welfare is considerably more than what they are currently making. Minimum wage jobs will be at a premium with this huge influx of cheap labor.

What new benefits will they get after legalization that will cost so much to outstrip the tax revenues they'll make?

You haven't read any of the studies done on this have you? Here's a link for you:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html#Amnesty

Uh... what do you with them now? If they are born in the US, they are citizens. They already get all the benefits.

Great, so allow unlimited immigration of groups that already have these problems!

That was to Whoha who was talking about current amnesty. Because even under current amnesty measures you'll have a number of illegals (maybe half) who will decide to be legals so as not to live in hiding, who may have children who are citizens and don't want them to worry that their daddy may be deported, etc. A lot of them will get jobs (though probably min wage) with their work ethic. That's more tax revenue that you had before. That revenue can be used to increase enforcement, if you wish, to help entice other illegals to become legal and stop the enablers.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

I got that imran, the numbers a fake and it goes on for a bit but at one point in time the number will be taken away since ss doesnt knwo who it belongs to so therefore said illegal isnt paying taxes any longer. After the number is taking away. They may do it for a year and then not for another 4 years. But i guess that answers my question in a way but as i have said that even in the crappiest paying job now days numbers are checked before hired. and if the number doesnt pan out the person is not employed. From what i get out of this it is the small business owners across the country supporting this measure

[SlowwHand]

Boils down to employers with no ethics, in any regard. Screw the illegal by paying low wages, screw American workers by ditto.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

I also wanted to add that here in san antonio i dont know bout other places, but an indigent or illegal will be treated and stabilized at any hospital, but after stable will be shipped to the state and govt funded hospital to cut the losses of the hospital that stabilized them. The hospital here is attached to the medical school and for the most part you are treated after admitted by resident and faculty drs (instructors) to fix ya up

[Imran Siddiqui]

You don't see the huge potential for abuse of the welfare state? Hospitals are already closing down in border states because of deadbeat illegals.

It isn't like it is difficult for people to walk over the border to come to a hospital on the US side of the border if they wanted to. You think that making them legal is going to lead to more trips? Especially since if they are legal, they'll most likely have W2s and paychecks with their real addresses on them?

As you pointed out - welfare is considerably more than what they are currently making. Minimum wage jobs will be at a premium with this huge influx of cheap labor.

And a new equilibrium will develop. Perhaps it will cost more for the first 1-2 years, but after that, welfare goes away in most cases. The number of min wage jobs rise as the workers become legal.

You haven't read any of the studies done on this have you? Here's a link for you:

I think the CIS analysis overstates the rise in costs for programs like Medicaid and Federal Education which illegals already get right now.

so allow unlimited immigration of groups that already have these problems

What problems? Just because you think 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican citizens are lazy doesn't make it so.

[SlowwHand]

I think the CIS analysis overstates the rise in costs for programs like Medicaid and Federal Education which illegals already get right now.

Even as a mere opinion, that's not much of an argument.