France to Erupt?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
At what sort of property lose and at what sort of lose of life amoung the law abiding citizens? And yet here we are one year later and once again a city bus has been burned by arsonists.

Last years riots have resulted in €200 million in damage, (source: wiki), and estimates of deaths vary between 0 and 4 IIRC, depending on whether you consider some deaths to be directly linked to the riots or not. Absolutely nothing in common with the riots in LA.

However, my bet is that there will be LA-like riots in a few years, if nothing changes.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If the poor Arabs are so oppressed and can't find jobs then may I suggest they get off their lazy asses and create their own jobs? Some how dirt poor Latin American and Asian immigrants in the US can still manage to open up restaurants, shops, start construction companies, and a million other different types of businesses. Maybe if these people tried to actually better themselves, take the intiative, and worked hard to be good Frenchmen then they wouldn't be where they are today. Instead they sit there demanding handouts and expecting the state to care for them.

Ah, wonderful bull****.

Your ignorance of the French ghettoes isn't amazing (I heard the same tripe countless times). However, what's amazing is that you almost perfectly ape the rant of many middle/upper class Frenchmen.

[Dinner]

Instead of deriding it maybe you should actually listen to it. There is a lot of truth to it.

[Barnabas]

If they riot just let the police punish their heads with big sticks

[Pekka]

We should just all learn how to play an instrument. I'll learn the jazz fluit because they make those cool screams in between and kick stuff. So we can do jam sessions. No one wants to riot during jam sessions. But if someone treis anything, you know where that fluit goes and it's not inside myself.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Oerdin


It worked very well in LA, thank you. I seem to recall the looting in New Orleans was quickly brought under control once the governor ordered looters to be shot.

USA /= France. I thought you would have understood that by now. The history of the country suggests that such a project would have be counterproductive to the aims you wish to achieve.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Oerdin

I am very happy I live in America where someone would have shot those men who hyjacked the bus and then burned it. People having a right to self defense.

the group that hijacked the bus was apparently armed with several guns. Q-Buses might work. though having the army move in would work better.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Ah, wonderful bull****.

Your ignorance of the French ghettoes isn't amazing (I heard the same tripe countless times). However, what's amazing is that you almost perfectly ape the rant of many middle/upper class Frenchmen.

Then why the hell did they enter the ghetto in the first place . when they came to France ?

[Barnabas]

Poor immigrants usually dont move to high class neighbourhoods when they first arrive,

maybe you should have asked instead, why have they remained in the guettos?

[Sandman]

In particular, France's main TV-channel TF1, had the news presented by a black man this summer. He is only the second "visible" talking head I've seen in the news, and the first one on a channel of this importance. If there are other people than this guy, I think it can have pretty big results, as it shows that "visible" people can be accepted in the mainstream (and not only through their skill in football or rap).

That's striking. The UK has had ethnic minority presenters since, well, as long as I can remember. Regional accents are common as well.

[LDiCesare]

I'd like to point out a few facts that the OP article seems to get wrong and Spiff hasn't insisted enough on. The French ghettoes inhabitants aren't necessarily arabs or muslims. Many are, and there are many black africans too, but these ghettoes are really a mix of nationalities, and, although there are more muslims than elsewhere, there are other religions too.
The point is each ghetto develops its own identity as a small state. The young who live there have a mentality that the ghetto is the world. So they usually can't even imagine leaving it to find wome work elsewhere. Since there's hardly any work to be found there, they don't have any incentive to work and learn at school, and end up with little or nothing to do.
Police repression has been quite useless because arsonists THINK they are not very likely to get caught and they are very likely not to get judged soon, so it makes the repression ineffective (the things that matter in a sanction are: - the fact you know you will be sanctioned, - the fact that sanction comes soon - whether you pay much or less, spend more or less time in prison, don't make any difference in the likelihood of the arsonist doing something bad).
I outlined 'think' because the current media and ministers just play into that: They say there are riots and insecurity. They say the police can't do its work. However true that may be, it just increases the feeling of impunity of young thugs. Although little can be hoped from the media, Sarkozy should really stop being such a ****, when he goes to big lengths to say there is insecurity in the subrubs.
Using more cops in the ghettoes, keeping them there longer, and sending experienced officers to the police there, and experienced teachers to schools, would help noticeably. Giving more funds to the justice so those who are caught get judged more quickly would also help a lot too.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Instead of deriding it maybe you should actually listen to it. There is a lot of truth to it.

No there isn't.


It's parse time

If the poor Arabs

The ghettoes are divided among three colours, roughly identically: whites, arabs and blacks. Among the whites, you'll find plenty of Portuguese origin. You imply that that the riots are solely or overwhelmingly made by the Arabs: it is complete ignorance.

are so oppressed and can't find jobs then may I suggest they get off their lazy asses and create their own jobs?

Some do.
However, it has been observed they encounter much trouble finding initial capital: Their families often have none (what with them being immigrants, who used to be dirt-poor at home, and who rose to being "just" poor in France), or have invested their life savings to build a home in the homeland. The banks are often exceedingly cautious with these young businessmen.

Yet, many small businesses are operated and probably owned by the Arabs. Kebab joints, small grocers and construction services in particular.

I notice that the blacks are actually lower on the food chain. There are much fewer businesses that are obviously managed by black people.

Another kind of business in which the youngsters go is illegal: trafficking drugs, stolen goods, or weapons. There's much money to be made in these domains, and quite a few enterprising young guys choose to go there. Since these guys have mucho money (whereas the ordinary employee from a cite earns minimal wage), this further reinforces the idea that working in the mainstream just sucks.

Maybe if these people tried to actually better themselves, take the intiative

You don't begin to imagine the creativity that is deployed in the ghettoes. They produce a very large part of our music (also because a successful rapper makes tons of money, but rap isn't the only music that comes out of the ghetto). The gifted sportsmen all compete in order to become football stars and make the big bucks. Almost all the people I know from the ghetto are heavily involved in sports or music.

and worked hard to be good Frenchmen then they wouldn't be where they are today.

Working hard to become good Frenchmen was tried during all of the 80's. It was the hope of an entire generation. It was found lacking, which is why the ghetto subculture has developed so much.
In the 80's, the ghetto dwellers encountered a bad employment situation, and the Arabs among them encountered common racism. IMO, common racism is now weakening (though those who remain racist are harsher), but the trust is now broken, and we have to fix it.




Your rant doesn't contribute to it though, because it is moralistic, because it is ignorant, because it puts all the blame on "the Arabs", and because it doesn't encourage the other part of the equation (the middle and upper class) to think about their own responsibilities. It is a speech of "us vs them" (or more accurately, "we are right, they are wrong, and we'll beat them to a pulp until they understand") which can only lead to further confrontation and escalation.

I would have no problem if this kind of rant was solely held by someone at the other end of the world. Unfortunately, as said, your rant closely resembles what I heard countless times in the French middle and upper class, which is why I am so afraid.

[Spiffor]

What LDiCesare said

But also something he didn't say: we aren't forced to have ghettoes in France. With some political will, we could have social housing spread over the urban territory, without concentrating all poverty in one place. This would be of considerable help for our society's cohesiveness.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
What LDiCesare said

But also something he didn't say: we aren't forced to have ghettoes in France. With some political will, we could have social housing spread over the urban territory, without concentrating all poverty in one place. This would be of considerable help for our society's cohesiveness.

Been there, done that. Google "scatter site housing" or some such thing. "Mario coumo, Forest Hills" might be a good google search as well.

Lets just say that while it has advantages, it has to be done VERY carefully, or it will create backlash even among liberal members of the majority. If you put the scatter site housing (as you likely will, for financial reasons) in the less privileged majority areas, you will create tremendous resentments.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

are so oppressed and can't find jobs then may I suggest they get off their lazy asses and create their own jobs?

Some do.
However, it has been observed they encounter much trouble finding initial capital: Their families often have none (what with them being immigrants, who used to be dirt-poor at home, and who rose to being "just" poor in France), or have invested their life savings to build a home in the homeland. The banks are often exceedingly cautious with these young businessmen.

Yet, many small businesses are operated and probably owned by the Arabs. Kebab joints, small grocers and construction services in particular.

I notice that the blacks are actually lower on the food chain. There are much fewer businesses that are obviously managed by black people.

[/b]Another kind of business in which the youngsters go is illegal: trafficking drugs,[/b] stolen goods, or weapons. There's much money to be made in these domains, and quite a few enterprising young guys choose to go there. Since these guys have mucho money (whereas the ordinary employee from a cite earns minimal wage), this further reinforces the idea that working in the mainstream just sucks.

Maybe if these people tried to actually better themselves, take the intiative

You don't begin to imagine the creativity that is deployed in the ghettoes. They produce a very large part of our music (also because a successful rapper makes tons of money, but rap isn't the only music that comes out of the ghetto). The gifted sportsmen all compete in order to become football stars replace for basketball stars big bucks. Almost all the people I know from the ghetto are heavily involved in sports or music.

and worked hard to be good Frenchmen then they wouldn't be where they are today.

Working hard to become good Frenchmen was tried during all of the 80's It was the hope of an entire generation. "A Raisin in the Sun" It was found lacking, which is why the ghetto subculture has developed so much.
In the 80's, the ghetto dwellers encountered a bad employment situation, and the Arabs among them encountered common racism. IMO, common racism is now weakening (though those who remain racist are harsher), but the trust is now broken, and we have to fix it.




Your rant doesn't contribute to it though, because it is moralistic, because it is ignorant, because it puts all the blame on "the Arabs", and because it doesn't encourage the other part of the equation (the middle and upper class) to think about their own responsibilities. It is a speech of "us vs them" (or more accurately, "we are right, they are wrong, and we'll beat them to a pulp until they understand") which can only lead to further confrontation and escalation.

I would have no problem if this kind of rant was solely held by someone at the other end of the world. Unfortunately, as said, your rant closely resembles what I heard countless times in the French middle and upper class, which is why I am so afraid.

Who says history doesnt repeat itself? The parallels to the US situation of the mid 1960s to early 1970s are striking. Absoulutely striking. And the problems with both "liberal" and "conservative" solutions are both on mind, from that era. Pardon if some of the older of us on this side of the pond are less than 100% sympathetic though - too many generations of being told how racism of this type (as opposed to imperial stuff) was uniquely American, jazz musicians in exile in Paris, and associated snickering.


Sarkozy as Nixon. Cmon, you know you want it. You know it will work. Y'all will feel awful about it, but it will work (IE a strategy of modestly increasing social service, some minority preferences, a fair amount of buying off of ghetto leaders with patronage jobs in "social service programs" all made palatable to the middle class by a lot of tough guy rhetoric, and some actuall tough guy policies, and a lot of attempts to divide up the minority on non-racial grounds "we will help those who GENUINELY want to improve, using program X, even as we punish those who dont")