God Delusion part deux

[Jon Miller]

So do others..

JM

[Flip McWho]

I understand that.

If you had a few hundred followers then I'd call you a messiah and class you as a religion.

[Berzerker]

Well our conscience is a product of environmental factors acting with/upon inherent factors innate to each person.

But we essentially share certain factors innate to each person, like the desire to be left alone when we want to be left alone, or to be helped when we are in need - resulting in the Golden Rule, a moral code combining these two ~universal desires. The conscience comes first, religion and upbringing come second and can cause the innate to be ignored, i.e., hypocrisy.

So, why does this conscience get in the way of evolutionary mechanisms? Eat, sleep, procreate, and kick ass. My genes will spread, to hell with you. Environment can induce cooperation, getting along, avoiding conflict - basic pragmatism - but the conscience is still there in the background telling you right from wrong.

So does the Golden Rule foster cooperation amongst groups of humans?

Of course, but we cooperate for pragmatic reasons. Desires precede actions and cooperation and the Golden Rule is about desires.

I literally talk to God

Let us know when he talks back

[Berzerker]

or... God is talking back thru your conscience

[Thorn]

He does talk back, bloody hell, why is it always assumed, that talk is one way to great ol' universal supreme being......

[Flip McWho]

But we essentially share certain factors innate to each person, like the desire to be left alone when we want to be left alone, or to be helped when we are in need - resulting in the Golden Rule, a moral code combining these two ~universal desires

I agree.

The conscience comes first

I disagree.
The conscience is being formed throughout your lifetime. A baby is born into the world without the ability to walk, talk or know anything about it's surrounding. All of these things it learns as it grows and at the same time it is fashioning its conscience. Are you the same person you thought yourself to be x amount of years ago now?

So, why does this conscience get in the way of evolutionary mechanisms?

Evolutionary mechanisms are all those mechanisms that aid in the continuation and thriving of the specie. A conscience has made humans the number 1 living thing on this planet thereby helping humanity survive and thrive.

Environment can induce cooperation, getting along, avoiding conflict - basic pragmatism - but the conscience is still there in the background telling you right from wrong.

Wouldn't cooperation be a logical step from helping those in need? Humanity doesn't live separate from it's evironment, indeed I would say we are a product of our environment. We share certain innate factors in the same way that bees share certain innate factors, or cows, or ducks, or t-rexs.

What is right and wrong is often decided by things other than the golden rule, such as what we experience in our environment.

Desires precede actions and cooperation and the Golden Rule is about desires.

I was reading on AmericanScientist.org that according to some study done the action precedes the desire to do the action by a fraction of a second.

Isn't desires also about spreading your genes into the next generation?

[Flip McWho]

He does talk back, bloody hell, why is it always assumed, that talk is one way to great ol' universal supreme being......

Depends who you talk too.

A theist will agree with you, except they probably wouldn't accept that you're talking to the right god and rather assume you're communicating with a devil.

An agnostic would give you the benefit of the doubt but probably just assume you're crazy.

An atheist would just assume you're crazy because "we" all know God doesn't exist.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
I understand that.

If you had a few hundred followers then I'd call you a messiah and class you as a religion.

Yeah, take Scientology...

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Thorn
No I'm not spiritual either, I literally talk to God, why is that concept so hard for people to fathom.....

Prayer is when you talk to God. When God talks to you, it's psychosis.

[Berzerker]

The conscience is being formed throughout your lifetime. A baby is born into the world without the ability to walk, talk or know anything about it's surrounding. All of these things it learns as it grows and at the same time it is fashioning its conscience. Are you the same person you thought yourself to be x amount of years ago now?

Environment can affect conscience, can even negate it in some people... But if we say environment defines conscience, you have to explain why people go against the prevailing "wisdom". Are they an evolutionary mutation? Or do higher life forms run into this "conscience", this regulator on success?

Evolutionary mechanisms are all those mechanisms that aid in the continuation and thriving of the specie. A conscience has made humans the number 1 living thing on this planet thereby helping humanity survive and thrive.

The human brain has done that, not the human conscience. The civilisations built by man usually came with oppressive societies, not by practicioners of the Golden Rule.

Wouldn't cooperation be a logical step from helping those in need?

Yes, the Golden Rule is about cooperation, but cooperation is a few steps after the desire to help others. Why the desire? A calculated decision that if you help me I will help you? Or because you cant walk away knowing you'd want help if you were in need? Hypocrisy is natural, rejecting it is not... The pragmatist says I'll help you because then you can help me. The conscience says I will help you because I'll feel guilty for violating the Golden Rule.

What is right and wrong is often decided by things other than the golden rule, such as what we experience in our environment.

In wartime innocent people die, does the environment justify that? No, its the lesser of two evils and the moral higherground resides with the defenders, but we dont say it was right for those innocent people to die. We lament their loss and tell ourselves it was unavoidable and lay blame for their deaths with the attackers.

the action precedes the desire to do the action by a fraction of a second.

You typed that before wanting to type it?

Isn't desires also about spreading your genes into the next generation?

That would be a desire created by an evolutionary mechanism, not your conscience.

Morality and conscience inhibit the success of species with higher intelligence, nature employs hypocrisy in the struggle for survival but morality rejects hypocrisy, therefore morality inhibits success. I think thats significant and may be evidence of intelligent design, so to speak...

[Flip McWho]

But if we say environment defines conscience, you have to explain why people go against the prevailing "wisdom".

When I say environment I am referring to every experience which has been observed by the individual, that exists separately from said individual as a totality up to the present. How people assimilate and interpret that environment is dependant on the individual and their education level, metaphysical leanings, innate characteristics. Morality is by definition about relationships within the environment, specifically human relationships within that environment.

So whilst there is a basic slate with which every human begins life with, they are to some degree or another moulded by the environment which they experience as life.

The human brain has done that, not the human conscience.

What's the distinction? The human conscience is a product of the brain, our cognitive abilities take place within the brain, by using components of the physical brain.

Quick question, are you a dualist?

Yes, the Golden Rule is about cooperation, but cooperation is a few steps after the desire to help others.

I would think that helping another person is cooperating with that other person. Helping others is cooperating.

Why the desire?

To help others?
Because we're social animals, whilst there are people who break this mold, we still fundamentally enjoy being with other people.

The pragmatist says I'll help you because then you can help me. The conscience says I will help you because I'll feel guilty for violating the Golden Rule.

So the pragmatist doesn't have a conscience, or doesn't have the right conscience?

In wartime innocent people die, does the environment justify that?

Yes, because the environment is wartime and innocent casualities are inevitable. We accept that (mostly) and rationalise the loss how you describe. But during that wartime environmental episode, the deaths of those innocents, while lamented, were accepted as necessary consequences of wartime.

If you wanted to avoid hypocrisy you'd also oppose any form of warfare/violence, unless you are admitting there are gray areas were the Golden Rule isn't so universally applicable.

You typed that before wanting to type it?

Apparently so.

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/34008

Free Will and Free Won't
Motor activity in the brain precedes our awareness of the intention to move, so how is it that we perceive control?
Sukhvinder S. Obhi, Patrick Haggard

Most of us have a sense that our everyday actions are controlled by an intention that precedes the action: I decide to turn on the light, then flip the switch. But experiments don't consistently support this notion. Some psychologists believe that our sense of intention and purpose is constructed by the brain after the action takes place. Others disagree. The authors discuss ingenious experiments that probe this question, along with bizarre phenomena, such as "alien-hand syndrome," where brain damage leaves patients struggling with actions they cannot control.

That would be a desire created by an evolutionary mechanism, not your conscience.

Remember that I'm arguing that your conscience is just as much a result of the evolutionary mechanisms just as any other biological desire is.

Morality and conscience inhibit the success of species with higher intelligence, nature employs hypocrisy in the struggle for survival but morality rejects hypocrisy, therefore morality inhibits success.

Firstly, define success, is success measured individually or collectively?

Secondly, could I have examples of hypocrisy in nature please?

I think thats significant and may be evidence of intelligent design, so to speak...

Fair enough. How about evidence that humanity has evolved to a point where we have sufficient knowledge and self realisation to be able to transcend our animalistic roots?