Shed a tear for the Europeans

[RGBVideo]

youd be aware that few neocons (robert Kagan the principle exception) have any sympathy for the EU.

I am. What gave you the impression I thought otherwise?

And that certainly was ONE of their motives for moving towards the EU, and their principle motive for joining NATO.

My point was that the motive was and is against an enemy which doesn't exist anymore.

wanted is past tense, in English.

I know. Eastern Europe joined NATO after the end of the cold war, I think we can agree.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by VJ

I am. What gave you the impression I thought otherwise?


My point was that the motive was and is against an
enemy which doesn't exist anymore.

What gave me the impression you thought otherwise, was that you seemed to think I might be a neocon, despite my post in this thread being sympathetic to the EU.

Poland entered NATO not for protection against a formal entity called "the USSR" which had already ceased to exist(though not that long before), but against the possibility of expansionism by a resurgent Russia. Well, now we've got a Russia that is economically resurgent, that has a close relation with Belarus on the Polish border, that (from the Polish POV) intervenes overtly in Ukrainian politics, that bullies its FSU neighbors, and that is increasingly throwing its weight around. And thats under Putin, a relative moderate compared to some elements in Russian politics. In that circumstance it seems quite rational for Poland to want to remain in NATO.

Again, I ask, do you really think that most Eastern Europeans think of their membership in NATO as being foisted on them against their will, just as the EU lectures Russia?

In case youve forgotten i first used the phrase Russian orbit in response to this:

"I'm not saying that these are all old-school colonial subjects, but they are subject to constant or regular intervention. Whilst it can be be argued that all of this involvement is good and proper, it still boils down to control by EU muscle. What it definitely involves is being lectured to in the same way that Russia is now being lectured to - which is why I made the comment that I did."

NOw the above implies to me an Eastern Europe that is pushed around by the Western euros in the EU, and that is sympathetic to the Russian plight of "being lectured to" And AFAICT that is quite frankly NOT the case in Eastern Europe, former Yugoslavia excepted (and even there Slovenia at least, is the exception to the exception)

[Ellestar]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

I personally would prefer it if Russia and the West were cooperative with each other, but if the West wants to keep playing this game of righteous indignation over the fact that Russia is an independent country....Russia has to look elsewhere.

You can believe in the potential for a Sino-Russian partnership if you want to. I personally think it would be smarter for Russia to make the small concessions needed to stay on relatively friendly terms with the West (ie. not killing journalists, intimidating former Soviet republics, etc.) than to hitch themselves to a rising power with a history of disagreement with Russia and a number of outstanding grievances...

Russia WAS friendly with the West for 15 years after USSR collapsed. The problem is that for 10 years West said that it's friendly to Russia but did absolutely nothing to uphold such claims. And in last 5 years West (for the most part, USA) clearly showed that it regards Russia as the enemy.

[Datajack Franit]

Europe: prostitute continent

[Pekka]

I'm quite baffled by the incompetence in the EU political leadership. They're like pussies, the only thing they ever negotiated was prolly how to let the poor know we support and pray for them and nice things, furry love, warm, yes..

So. Putin comes and says he wants something. And what do our guys do? Be shocked. Ooooh how can he do that, he says he won't comply 100%, he will have demands too... in fact he is not playing nice at all!

What a bunch of whiny pussies, they just can't understand not everyone buys into their uberhumanism that is used as a scapegoat anyway to demand what ever you want. So Putin called their BS, and they went 'Oh no! Now we don't know what to say anymore!'. ****ing idiots, it is because of these kinds of losers that we lose more ground int he future as well and not get the deals we want.

Putin wants to live in soem kind of cold war rhetorics era, so give him his kicks. But get the deal done. I don't care how his talking offends some sissie green feminist, what they need to do is get the goddamn deal done, that¨'s the point, but they can't get over themselves. Maybe they even believe their own crap for repeating it so long.

I'm interested in the deal and the art of making it. Clearly we have huge incompetence in EU. They don't even know how to deal with a partner that has demands. What do you do? You don't cry, you negotiate. That's why you are getting demands, you are negotiating. Bunch of pussies these Euro leaders.. THey never had to deal with anyone except small euro countries who roll over when you say 'ME BIGGER!'.