300 Million Strong

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli


Ah, so they're of that variety? I hope you're doing some missionary work there.

anything overt would get lead to very bad consequences. Mainly one tries to simply use ones example. See, not only can one still be a good person and be "modern", one can be strongly Jewish. And be respectful. And know something about Talmud. Etc, etc. Of the 45 we've got about one whos about half broken away (but still Orthodox), and one or two others who seem to be contemplating it. There are quite a larger number who have attended some kind of college and entered a sort of modern profession while remaining completley chasidic, something one didnt see 30 years ago.

and we've got almost 45 who have a different perspective on what it means to be Jewish than most others in their community have.

[DanS]

Do you know of a good description for the current way of life for hasidic Jews? I know little about them, really.

The strict Amish shun modern life and only go to school through 8th grade. They do not have cars, electricity, or running water. They mostly live an agrarian lifestyle. The number of kids per family varies, but it is usually around 8. Their lifestyle is indeed plain.

How do the hasidic Jews compare?

[Eli]

Edit: I'm stupid. Ignore.

[Eli]

So they're Satmers, or some other variety? I'm not really fluent in the whole Orthodox factions business.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DanS
Do you know of a good description for the current way of life for hasidic Jews? I know little about them, really.

The strict Amish shun modern life and only go to school through 8th grade. They do not have cars, electricity, or running water. They mostly live an agrarian lifestyle. The number of kids per family varies, but it is usually around 8. Their lifestyle is indeed plain.

How do the hasidic Jews compare?

they accept modern technology, though they are wary of modern ideas and lifestyles.

They attend Yeshiva, a Jewish day school, at least through 12th grade. The Yeshivas have some nominal secular studies to comply with state law, but i think that study is a little weak - mainly they study Jewish texts. The girls probably get a better secular education than the boys, since they spend less time on Jewish texts.

Any boys whos family can afford it then spends several further years learning MORE Jewish texts. Many girls these days go on to "seminary" where they get an degree in education making it possible for them to teach in a Hassidic girls school.

They used to all go into small businesses, esp jewelry, electronics etc. As their numbers grow, and businesses they can enter with little formal education grow saturated, increasing numbers of them attempt to get some secular education without exposure to "campus" life. Sometimes by correspondence course, sometime by extension schools in their communities, etc. Some work in computer related fields in Manhattan, etc.

They do own and use cars - women seldom drive. They use electricity, but no TV. Well, some have monitors that they allow their children to watch (carefully selected) movies on. But no broadcast TV. They do have radio, and pretty much all other electric appliances. Personal computers are widespread, but no internet unless required business purposes.

theres a good film about them, "A Life Apart, Hasidim in America"

Theres "The Chosen" by Chaim Potok, but thats dated.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli
So they're Satmers, or some other variety? I'm not really fluent in the whole Orthodox factions business.

QOTMs birth family was Vishnitz. One sib married into Satmar, one into Pupa, one into Muncach, the rest are all Vishnitz. The Satmar are, of course the bitterly anti-Zionist ones (and bitterly antimodern, and anti-Chabad, and anti most anything that isnt Satmar) the rest are more "non-Zionist" They would be upset if say we gave their kids stuff with Israeli flags on it, but they know perfectly well that WE are Zionists, and thats Kewl. Indeed, many of them have non-Chasidic Haredi friends, and one sister in law, gave me a spirited defense of Baruch Goldstein ("hed seen so many of his friends killed") which seemed odd as they wouldnt, say, be happy if I sang "Hatikvah". Nor would they understand how a friend of mine could get married during the counting of the Omer, using Yom Yerushaliyim as a "yom tov" and therefore a kosher day for a wedding.


The Vishnitz, BTW are divided. They couldnt agree on which of two sons of the previous rebbe should be the new Rebbe, so now theres on in Monsey, NY, and one in B'nei Brak. Im not sure if they agreed to divvy the community up based on North Am vs Israel, but I think thats how its worked out.

BTW, Im sure at least one of my nephews is currently studying in Bnei Brak.

[DanS]

Thanks for the rundown, LOTM.

[Eli]

I never understood how the non-zionist groups manage to survive as more than merely obscure intellectual currents. There's gotta be a huge force pushing them towards the mainstream Jewish community and the whole ideology matter should be less strong than that force, at least for the common people. After all, the natural, instinctive reaction is a nationalistic one.

Like that sister in law of yours that defended Goldstein. Why would she do that, unless she feels, despite everything, a certain connection with Goldstein as a representative of (uber) Zionism?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli
So they're Satmers, or some other variety? I'm not really fluent in the whole Orthodox factions business.

First, as Im sure you know there is the basic division of Dati vs Charedi

Dati - modern orthodox - mizrachi Zionist - knit kippah (kippah sruga?) Mafdal - "A modern man within the Halacha"

Charedi - ultra-orthodox - black hat, UTJ, etc

Within Charedi - Hasidim vs mitnagdim

Mitnagdim - Black hat, Litvaks, Yeshivash.

Follow the halacha strictly, are non-Zionist (with exceptions - see Charedi Leumi), traditional emphasis on learning, community leaders are head of Yeshivas.

Chassidim - largely from Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, Galicia. Follow a more mystical, emotional approach to Orthodox J. Leaders are hereditary dynasts (rebbes) who are said to have mystical connections. Grouping around particular dynasties, originating in different towns in Europe, often with different traditions. Thus Satmar, Vishnitz, etc, etc. Traditionally anti-Zionist, id say most other than Satmar have slipped pretty far toward "non-Zionist".

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli
I never understood how the non-zionist groups manage to survive as more than merely obscure intellectual currents. There's gotta be a huge force pushing them towards the mainstream Jewish community and the whole ideology matter should be less strong than that force, at least for the common people. After all, the natural, instinctive reaction is a nationalistic one.

Like that sister in law of yours that defended Goldstein. Why would she do that, unless she feels, despite everything, a certain connection with Goldstein as a representative of (uber) Zionism?

Theres an instinctive feeling of identification with other Jews, of course. Thats not a novum, and wasnt invented by Zionists. Theres a rigid rejection of overtly Zionist symbols - they wouldnt loft a Blue and White flag, any more than theyd serve lobster. Thats just another strictness, largely without emotion Id say.

The real issue is there general approach to politics, which varies between a deep mystical quietist fatalism, and a pragmatic willingess to deal with the authorities in power. Both of which are "unamerican" of course, and are slowly, painfully slowly being worn away by exposure to the US political process. Of course the latter approach, cutting deals with bosses, was quite routing in NYC 50 years ago, and seems to still fit the Israeli political process quite well. Im not sure how many real fatalists there are - i think human nature conflicts with ideology, and that events both in Israel and the US over the last 20 years have weakened the fatailism.

The uberzionism thing is something else. Many of them have social ties to non-Chasidis Haredim, and as you know, some elements in that community have become the most extreme uberzionists (Well, I wouldnt concede that they are Uber in their zionism, but thats me - I know what you mean) Their personal social connections conflict with their groups ideology - its no surprise that the person who expressed that was A. A woman and B. about the most modern of the sibs. This isnt something youd hear in a Satmar Yeshiva.

[lord of the mark]

take for example Chabad (odd man out among the chassidim)

Israel is not recognized, and it was deeply wrong to pull out of Gaza.

I cant make sense out of that either. The whole Chardal (charedi Leumi) thing seems filled with contradictions, ones that dont lessen with the jump from the the litvak world to the Chassidm. But youre closer to the ground zero of the phenomenon than I am.

[Eli]

The real issue is there general approach to politics, which varies between a deep mystical quietist fatalism, and a pragmatic willingess to deal with the authorities in power. Both of which are "unamerican" of course, and are slowly, painfully slowly being worn away by exposure to the US political process. Of course the latter approach, cutting deals with bosses, was quite routing in NYC 50 years ago, and seems to still fit the Israeli political process quite well. Im not sure how many real fatalists there are - i think human nature conflicts with ideology, and that events both in Israel and the US over the last 20 years have weakened the fatailism.

The uberzionism thing is something else. Many of them have social ties to non-Chasidis Haredim, and as you know, some elements in that community have become the most extreme uberzionists (Well, I wouldnt concede that they are Uber in their zionism, but thats me - I know what you mean) Their personal social connections conflict with their groups ideology - its no surprise that the person who expressed that was A. A woman and B. about the most modern of the sibs. This isnt something youd hear in a Satmar Yeshiva.

Personal connections and environment tend to win against ideologies. That's good.

Or not good. That's probably the main reason for assimilation.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli

The real issue is there general approach to politics, which varies between a deep mystical quietist fatalism, and a pragmatic willingess to deal with the authorities in power. Both of which are "unamerican" of course, and are slowly, painfully slowly being worn away by exposure to the US political process. Of course the latter approach, cutting deals with bosses, was quite routing in NYC 50 years ago, and seems to still fit the Israeli political process quite well. Im not sure how many real fatalists there are - i think human nature conflicts with ideology, and that events both in Israel and the US over the last 20 years have weakened the fatailism.

The uberzionism thing is something else. Many of them have social ties to non-Chasidis Haredim, and as you know, some elements in that community have become the most extreme uberzionists (Well, I wouldnt concede that they are Uber in their zionism, but thats me - I know what you mean) Their personal social connections conflict with their groups ideology - its no surprise that the person who expressed that was A. A woman and B. about the most modern of the sibs. This isnt something youd hear in a Satmar Yeshiva.

Personal connections and environment tend to win against ideologies. That's good.

Or not good. That's probably the main reason for assimilation.

except sometimes ideologies can CREATE environments or personal connections. Or so I hear. "Im tirtzu..."

[Eli]

Sorry, but this analogy is wrong. There never was a conflict between Zionism and the modern world and way of life. The Zionist movement embraced it, even helped to create and spread it among Jews.

***

As for Chabad. I sometimes wonder if this mystical, almost fanatical, fast growing movement that is centered around a Messiah figure and has strong missionary tendencies will not end up as a separate religion one day.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli
Sorry, but this analogy is wrong. There never was a conflict between Zionism and the modern world and way of life. The Zionist movement embraced it, even helped to create and spread it among Jews.

***

As for Chabad. I sometimes wonder if this mystical, almost fanatical, fast growing movement that is centered around a Messiah figure will not end up as a separate religion one day.

I was simply indicating that an ideology can change a social environment. You live in a society thats mainly Jewish, almost evenly Ashkenazic=Sephardic, and the non-Jews are mainly arabs, rather than in a slavic society, or an anglophone Christian society, cause of some fairly intense ideologues. I fully understand thed difference between a modernist ideology and an anti-modernist (Well pretty much, I actually think there are some grey areas) I was simply asserting the power of will and idea over material social reality.

And I dont know that the antimodernist ideology of the hassidim will prevent them changing their social reality. The sister in law i mentioned lives in borough park, an area where chassidim live mixed in with other hareridim, and even a minority of Dati (including a Yemenite community) The Satmer are busy buying up plots of land in odd corners of New York State to establish completely Satmar towns - with Satmar controlled local govts etc. It almost sounds Zionist, but without the overt modernist ideology, and of course without sovereignty (but Achad ha-Am, among others, was skeptical of sovereignty = "Zeh lo ha derekh") Certainly they are making their ideological dream into social reality as surely as any second aliyah chalutz.

Re Chabad - A. the mysticism is much like all the other chasidim. They are also no more fanatical, and in some ways less - certainly they dont isolate themselves like the others. The messiah thing is what would break them off. From what I can see, most Chabadniks have accepted the Schneerson was not the Mossiach. They seem to be going the way of the Bratslav, who have done just fine without a living Rebber for two hundred years. OTOH i understand there are SOME who think Schneerson is the mossiach, and "lehavdil" is still alive. The other chabadniks are very embarrassed by this. I dont have a poll on how many are one way or the other.