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600,000 killed by Bush's war in Iraq

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  • 600,000 killed by Bush's war in Iraq

    From NYT:

    BAGHDAD, Oct. 10 — A team of American and Iraqi public health researchers has estimated that 600,000 civilians have died in violence across Iraq since the 2003 American invasion, the highest estimate ever for the toll of the war here.

    The figure breaks down to about 15,000 violent deaths a month, a number that is quadruple the one for July given by Iraqi government hospitals and the morgue in Baghdad and published last month in a United Nations report in Iraq. That month was the highest for Iraqi civilian deaths since the American invasion.

    But it is an estimate and not a precise count, and researchers acknowledged a margin of error that ranged from 426,369 to 793,663 deaths.

    It is the second study by researchers from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. It uses samples of casualties from Iraqi households to extrapolate an overall figure of 601,027 Iraqis dead from violence between March 2003 and July 2006.

    The findings of the previous study, published in The Lancet, a British medical journal, in 2004, had been criticized as high, in part because of its relatively narrow sampling of about 1,000 families, and because it carried a large margin of error.

    The new study is more representative, its researchers said, and the sampling is broader: it surveyed 1,849 Iraqi families in 47 different neighborhoods across Iraq. The selection of geographical areas in 18 regions across Iraq was based on population size, not on the level of violence, they said.

    The study comes at a sensitive time for the Iraqi government, which is under pressure from American officials to take action against militias driving the sectarian killings.

    In the last week of September, the government barred the central morgue in Baghdad and the Health Ministry — the two main sources of information for civilian deaths — from releasing figures to the news media. Now, only the government is allowed to release figures. It has not provided statistics for September, though a spokesman said Tuesday that it would.

    The American military has disputed the Iraqi figures, saying that they are far higher than the actual number of deaths from the insurgency and sectarian violence, in part because they include natural deaths and deaths from ordinary crime, like domestic violence.

    The figure, compiled by a team of American and Iraqi public health researchers, is the highest estimate ever for the toll of the war.
    Golfing since 67

  • #2
    Copycat thread.

    Comment


    • #3
      they include natural deaths and deaths from ordinary crime, like domestic violence
      If you pull those out, what's the number? Surely that shouldn't be so hard...

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

      Comment


      • #4
        This sure looks like a well conducted study. [/sarcasm]
        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Arrian


          If you pull those out, what's the number? Surely that shouldn't be so hard...

          -Arrian
          Yeah that's a bit dumb, it should only factor extra deaths as a direct result of the invasion, not natural deaths...

          Stupid figures like this give those against the invasion a bad name.
          Is it me, or is MOBIUS a horrible person?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Arrian


            If you pull those out, what's the number? Surely that shouldn't be so hard...

            -Arrian
            According to the study, published in the Lancet, the study found 654,965 deaths since the invasion. Of these deaths, 601,027 were due to violence.

            Golfing since 67

            Comment


            • #7
              Ok, that's a start. Then you have to try and pull out those violent deaths that are not attributable to the invasion. And of course that is somewhat subjective depending on the violent crime in question. Domestic abuse/violence? Not b/c of the invasion, IMO. Sectarian gunbattle? Yeah, that is (at least in part) on us.

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the military spin doctors were working hard when they suggested that the inclusion of domestic violence somehow distorts the numbers. These deaths would likely be statistically insignificant.
                Golfing since 67

                Comment


                • #9
                  Perhaps so, but then why would it be a problem to pull them out? Why include them in the first place, if not to boost the number?

                  -Arrian
                  grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                  The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What I´d like to see would be a comparison between this number and the number of violent deaths that occured in the same amount of time in Iraq when Saddam still was in power (including those killed in Saddams torture chambers of course)
                    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                    • #11
                      If someone it stabbed in a dark alley and his wallet stolen, does it count? If that wouldn't have happened before the invasion because of a stronger police presence, does it count?

                      It's impossible to determine which deaths are attributable to US action.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Proteus_MST
                        What I´d like to see would be a comparison between this number and the number of violent deaths that occured in the same amount of time in Iraq when Saddam still was in power (including those killed in Saddams torture chambers of course)
                        I suspect that the overall death-rate per month is higher now, than over the whole of Saddam's reign, but specific episodes (eg: Kurd-gassing) would make for some high peaks in the morbidograph.

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                        • #13
                          Even if it is only an aproximation its a hell of a big number, I doubt that Saddam managed those numbers in a similar period, although I'm sure he would have liked to.
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                          • #14
                            I've no doubt that the chaos that has followed the invasion & overthrown of Saddam has increased violent deaths. No doubt whatsoever.

                            Then again, there really isn't any way to calculate it in hard numbers, as Kuci said.

                            Basically, those who already think the invasion was bad are going to accept that it resulted in lots more deaths and that those deaths are not "worth it" in some way. I'm in that group, though I think this is a sloppy study.

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So how many Iraqis do you "skeptics" think died in non-invasion related violence? Even a hundred thousand is patently ridiculous.
                              "On this ship you'll refer to me as idiot, not you captain!"
                              - Lone Star

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