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Did God create sin ?

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  • #16
    Why did God destroy Sodom? There seems to be a number of different opinions in our changing world, so perhaps it's best (as of course it always is) to let The Word of God in The Holy Bible account speak for itself. The entire story of Sodom and Gomorrah is found in Genesis chapters 18 and 19, along with numerous other references throughout the Bible. Here are a few excerpts -

    "The two angels arrived in Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city." (Genesis 19:1)

    "He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom - young and old - surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." (Genesis 19:3-5)

    "The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here - sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to The Lord against its people is so great that He has sent us to destroy it." (Genesis 19:12-13)

    "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then The Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from The Lord out of the heavens. Thus He overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in those cities - and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot's wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt." (Genesis 19:23-26)

    "The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves." (Isaiah 3:9)

    "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7)

    also

    The ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been discovered southeast of the Dead Sea. The modern names are Bab edh-Dhra, thought to be Sodom, and Numeira, thought to be Gomorrah. Both places were destroyed at the same time by an enormous conflagration. The destruction debris was about three feet thick. What brought about this awful calamity? Startling discoveries in the cemetery at Bab edh-Dhra revealed the cause. Archaeologists found that buildings used to bury the dead were burned by a fire that started on the roof.

    What would cause every structure in the cemetery to be destroyed in this way? The answer to the mystery is found in the Bible. "Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah -- from the Lord out of the heavens" (Genesis 19:24). The only conceivable explanation for this unique discovery in the annals of archaeology is that burning debris fell on the buildings from the air. But how could such a thing happen?

    There is ample evidence of subterranean deposits of a petroleum-based substance called bitumen, similar to asphalt, in the region south of the Dead Sea. Such material normally contains a high percentage of sulfur. It has been postulated by geologist Frederick Clapp that pressure from an earthquake could have caused the bitumen deposits to be forced out of the earth through a fault line. As it gushed out of the earth it could have been ignited by a spark or surface fire. It would then fall to earth as a burning, fiery mass.

    It was only after Clapp formulated this theory that Sodom and Gomorrah were found. It turns out that the sites are located exactly on a fault line along the eastern side of a plain south of the Dead Sea, so Clapp's theory is entirely plausible. There is some evidence for this scenario from the Bible itself. Abraham viewed the destruction from a vantage point west of the Dead Sea. The Bible records what Abraham saw: "He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace" (Genesis 19:28). Dense smoke suggests smoke from a petroleum-based fire. Smoke rising like smoke from a furnace indicates a forced draft, such as would be expected from subterranean deposits being forced out of the ground under pressure.

    The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah became an example in the Bible of how God judges sin. "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before Me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen" (Ezekiel 16:49-50).

    View east along the southern wall of the destroyed city of Sodom (Bab edh-Dhra) southeast of the Dead Sea in modern Jordan.
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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    • #17
      That's because this is a not so subtle attempt to demonstrate that montheism is inferior to others. The failed logic only goes to show that the opposite may actually be the case.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by DaShi
        That's because this is a not so subtle attempt to demonstrate that montheism is inferior to others. The failed logic only goes to show that the opposite may actually be the case.
        I wouldn't go so far. There are plenty of moron Christians who do the same thing to polytheism, after all.
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        • #19
          I think the real question is whether sin created God.
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by SlowwHand
            What is the basis for ethics?
            Philosophy.

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            • #21
              Ethics is right and wrong. Without religion, there is no right or wrong.
              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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              • #22
                Originally posted by SlowwHand
                Ethics is right and wrong. Without religion, there is no right or wrong.
                A persons moral system comes entirely from within that person and is subject neither to reason nor logic. Religion is not required (and, in fact, some may say religion makes a poor basis for morality)
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                • #23
                  That's ridiculous.
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SlowwHand
                    That's ridiculous.
                    Some (including myself) would say that idea that there is no right or wrong without religion is ridiculous and antiquated notion, to which the only proper response is merciless mocking.
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by SlowwHand
                      That's ridiculous.
                      I made four statements. Which one do you disagree with?
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                      • #26
                        Take whichever statement you want. To begin with, that mankind morphed into being, with an inate sense of right and wrong, based on nothing.

                        Let's start there.
                        Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                        "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                        He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SlowwHand
                          Take whichever statement you want. To begin with, that mankind morphed into being, with an inate sense of right and wrong, based on nothing.

                          Let's start there.
                          Well, it depends on your definition of "right and wrong". If by that you mean "morality", it makes a fair bit of sense - most animals are emotional creatures, and cooperation (aka "morality" of some sort) may have been beneficial to the propagation of the species. Our higher analytical capacity probably also aids in the development of morality. But ask an evolutionary biologist for more specifics.

                          We should, of course, note that humans (especially early humans) probably weren't "moral" by today's Western standards, hence if you are referring to a specific moral system when you say "innate", then I don't believe they did.

                          Plus, the development of a moral system does tend to be at least somewhat cultural - hence why most Westerners tend to agree on various moral issues while most Middle Easterners also seem to agree, and yet the two groups disagree.

                          I don't think that moral systems come from God, partially because there are so many conflicting moral systems in the world - they can't all come from the same source, unless that source is either sadistic or there are multiple sources. As well, I have no proof to that effect, and I certainly know that my moral system didn't come from God.
                          As well, even if God were to exist, saying that he is able to determine morality is itself an arbitrary ethical statement.

                          I don't believe they are subject to logic or reason because, well, they aren't If two people have a fundamental values disagreement, the only way you can convince them to accept your values is to work through other values they may have. The person who places no value on human life will likely not be able to convince the person who places high value on it through wonderful rhetoric and reason.
                          I have absolutely no "good reason" to believe any of the moral statements that I make. They are arbitrary in this regard.

                          I don't think religion is required because there are plenty of irreligious or antireligious people who have moral systems

                          I think religion largely makes a poor base for it because religions, especially those of Abraham, are often founded on fear - if you don't do this, you will go to hell. I'm good because I want to be good, not because I'm avoiding some unpleasant future.
                          Plus, such moral systems can be manipulated to evil if they are based on religious fervor.
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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                            Some (including myself) would say that idea that there is no right or wrong without religion is ridiculous and antiquated notion, to which the only proper response is merciless mocking.
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                            • #29
                              Oh dear...I actually agree with Sloww (more or less...I think he's oversimplifying), but I'm sick of explaining myself over and over again. What to do, what to do...
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                              • #30
                                Point me to a previous post of yours on the matter.
                                Retype your post.
                                Don't participate.
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