DC Mongolian Community pushes for Genghis Kahn statue

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Are we simply to decide that everyone pre-1700 or so is not worthy of any respect? Because anyone pre-1700 or so that led a nation was responsible for killing a lot of people. Except for the Dalai Lama, maybe, and even the Buddhists weren't exactly nice guys for a good long while.

Lots of horrible things happened back then. But that doesn't mean they are all morally equivilent.

60 million (and that was just China) dead by Khan vs. 20,000 dead in the Inquisition/expulsion just don't compare.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by snoopy369

Khan and his unification of much of Asia was responsible in large part for the modernization of the western world, trading goods and ideas between the east and the west.

From where do you have that? The trade via Asia might have had some influence, but who makes the argument that it (and the exchange of ideas it brought) was "responsible in large part for the modernization of the western world"?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by snoopy369

Khan and his unification of much of Asia was responsible in large part for the modernization of the western world, trading goods and ideas between the east and the west.

And friggin Christopher Colombus was responsible for bring together two hemispheres and creating huge positive new developments, and for enslaving a few dozen indians and letting his unruly subordinates massacre a few hundred, we are expected to deny him honor.

Look, ratio, here, perspective. Columbus vs GK - I mean its not like stuff didnt pass down the silk road before GK, and the Mongol empire didnt last that long anyway. For that we pay millions of innocent civilans, many deliberately murdered. Don Colombo, we get the new world, for relatively minor atrocities. (In both cases I exclude atrocities done by their followers after their deaths)

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by LordShiva
OK, let's credit Genghis for unifying central Asia and modernising the Western world. But let's not build a statue to a slaughterer.

The mighty banana has spoken

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


Lots of horrible things happened back then. But that doesn't mean they are all morally equivilent.

60 million (and that was just China) dead by Khan vs. 20,000 dead in the Inquisition/expulsion just don't compare.

60 million is almost certainly massively exaggerated. Even Wiki admits that.

I don't see why the numbers matter. Once you get over a few hundred, they're morally equivalent to me. You can only go to hell once, after all.

However, while most of those leaders in the middle ages just were acquiring power, Genghis Khan actually brought civilization to Asia.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


And friggin Christopher Colombus was responsible for bring together two hemispheres and creating huge positive new developments, and for enslaving a few dozen indians and letting his unruly subordinates massacre a few hundred, we are expected to deny him honor.

Look, ratio, here, perspective. Columbus vs GK - I mean its not like stuff didnt pass down the silk road before GK, and the Mongol empire didnt last that long anyway. For that we pay millions of innocent civilans, many deliberately murdered. Don Colombo, we get the new world, for relatively minor atrocities. (In both cases I exclude atrocities done by their followers after their deaths)

Oh, i'm all for honoring Columbus. Aren't about half of working people in the US taking monday off in his honor?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by snoopy369


60 million is almost certainly massively exaggerated. Even Wiki admits that.

I don't see why the numbers matter. Once you get over a few hundred, they're morally equivalent to me. You can only go to hell once, after all.

However, while most of those leaders in the middle ages just were acquiring power, Genghis Khan actually brought civilization to Asia.

Asia didnt have civilization pre-GK? Thats news to me.

and yes, I think scope matters. Reason we treat Hitler differently than, say, some whoever ran the Kishinev pogrom. And its not just Benthamite calculus either - when you kill a LOT of people you destroy communities, ways of life, etc.

BTW, the destruction of Baghdad by Hulagu, had the effect of instigating certain new trends in Islamic philosophy, some of which led via Salafism and Qutb to Al Qaeeda.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Oh, i'm all for honoring Columbus. Aren't about half of working people in the US taking monday off in his honor?

we get the day off, but we're not supposed to say much nice about him

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by snoopy369
However, while most of those leaders in the middle ages just were acquiring power, Genghis Khan actually brought civilization to Asia.

Eh? So the areas and people he conquered had no civilization before? That's funny.

And do I get an answer to my previous post, or can I just assume that you pulled that "modernization" thing out of your ass?

[snoopy369]

Perhaps; but also the end of the Hassassin rule in the area came about as a result of the Mongolians, which perhaps slowed that same Al Qaeeda...

[LordShiva]

I propose a compromise: No statue to Genghis. Instead, build a statue to his pet water buffalo.

From wikipedia:

Ghengas Khan also had a pet water buffallo named Hingpung choo wung foo ding ling ping.

[Barnabas]

Why not a statue to Kublai?

[LordShiva]

Kublai was anti-water buffalo.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Why not a statue to Kublai?

How about a stately pleasure dome, instead?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
according to wiki, there were a TOTAL of 1.8 million German civilian deaths during WW2. That presumably includes deaths from disease and hunger, deaths inflicted by the Soviets when the reached Germany, and deaths from bombings that actually hit armaments factories that had workers in them at the time.

Oh, wait. that even includes Jews and others killed BY the Nazis.

"Civilian war dead include 360-370,000 killed by Allied Strategic bombing within the 1937 German boundaries[25,460]. About 600,000 Victims of Nazi persecution from 1939 to 1945 including 300,000 political prisoners.[17,Table A]Rûdiger Overmans estimates 1,100,000 German civilian dead in eastern Europe as the result of the 1945 military campaign and the expulsion of Germans after World War II[6,298-299]. Postwar deaths of about 500,000 due to famine are not included in these losses. The genocide of Roma people was 15,000 persons.[13,183] Jewish Holocaust victims totaled 160,000.[14,244]"

So a grand total of less than 400,000 from the strategic bombing campaign. And of course that INCLUDES civilian workers killed on their shift in munitions plants, etc.