Happy reunification day, my fellow Kraut posters

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Eli

The Germans provoked the retribution, don't get me wrong. However, it's wrong to think that the Germans committed atrocities yet got away scott free. The German people paid heavily for their crimes. That's why I think that his comment is a bit strange.

What I meant to say is that while I agree that the Germans paid heavily, I think that they should've paid even more. The civilian population suffered enough, yes.

But what happened to all the people who made the Nazi state function, all it's layers of bureaucracy? To all the surviving Wehrmacht soldiers? I dont care much about the lower layer bureaucrats and the common troopers, but I wouldnt have shed any tears if all the higher ranks were put against the wall.

I don't think that anyone would shed tears for them. They would have deserved it. If there were some way to switch those people and give them the fate suffered by many of the common Germans who were ethnically cleansed, then that would be the best. Unfortunately, it's not.

The German people paid dearly (and are in some respects still paying for) for their support / passive acceptance of the Third Reich. To suggest that the Germans as a whole didn't pay enough seems more driven by emotion than fairness. I'd probably feel the same way that you do if I were in your shoes, though.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Which Warsaw uprising are you referring to? The Jewish rising in '43, or the Polish Home Army rising in '44? I doubt nearly as many people here know about the latter as the former (except for anti-Communists looking for evidence of Soviet nefariousness)

There was recently a pretty well known book published about the 1944 Warsaw uprising. I don't know if it was a bestseller, but it was carried in every major U.S. bookstore chain that I frequent (Barnes & Nobles, Borders, Waldenbooks, Books-a-Million).


Rising '44: The Battle for Warsaw

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Which Warsaw uprising are you referring to? The Jewish rising in '43, or the Polish Home Army rising in '44? I doubt nearly as many people here know about the latter as the former (except for anti-Communists looking for evidence of Soviet nefariousness)

Yea, I know about the Jewish uprising, but not the other one.

And LotM's description of how the war in Europe went down is pretty much as I remember it.

[Heresson]

Again i think there is extensive depiction of sufferings of others. You wouldnt happen to be familiar with the novel and movie Sophies Choice, whose plot is about a Polish woman and her suffering?

is there a museum in Washington or Tel Aviv dedicated to non-jewish victims of ww2 Germany?

I am not going to debate that here. I think you know I disagree.

I think You know it is true, but because of your feelings, or because of politics, don't want to admit that

Romas may have been smaller in number, but alongside the Jews, they were on of two ethnic groups singled out for complete extermination.

Gays are mentioned alot lately, as it was rarely spoken of till recently.

That is true, but when it comes to gay people, I think it is - again - used as a political weapon, though to a much lesser extent, against the ones that don't want to recognise so-called "gay rights"

One of the Israelis will do better to answer on the level of knowledge in Israel. I think anyone over here knows that they were German camps IN Poland.

Well, lets wait.

Obviously Poles had no say over the decisions of the General Government, let alone over those made in Berlin. Some Poles, certainly, were not saddened by what happened to the Jews. I do not blame the Polish nation for that, as I doubt there is any nation on earth where at least a few wouldnt take joy in something like that happening to an unpopular minority. I consider that to apply to both the US and Israel, BTW. It was what the Germans did that was the shock, the challenge to our understanding of man, God and history. I personally tend to think some folks, including some Jews, would rather think about a Polish farmer who was apathetic about the death trains passing near his fields, than about the Germans gassing the folks who came off those trains. What the Polish farmer did or didnt do is comprehensible, something one can relate to. What the German authorities did is not.

But did a farmer know what's in the wagons passing his field? Didn't he have his own problems - compulsory food provisions for Germans, being taken to slave labour or expelled from his property...? If a Jew jumped out of the train and asked him for help, some would agree - but some would not, as in Poland, unlike in western Europe, a price for helping a Jew was death penalty for you and your family. Or would You help Jews, armed or not, if the only food they could get would be by robbing You, and You, by allowing it to be robbed, could be accused of helping them and being - again - killed?
What I mean is that not only others suffered as well, but they weren't free to help Jews, even if they could.
Another case is of pope Pius. He was thanked after the war by jewish community, yet communistic defamations with decades made an influence on public mind. He did help Jews, but he was accused of not doing enough, for not standing openly against nazizm, as the previous pope did. People in describing both these matters forget ww2 realities.