English (United States)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

"A language is a dialect with an army and navy." - Max Weinreich

And we all know what country has the best army and navy. Bow down, you limey *****es...

Actually what he said was "A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot"

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


I don't think that's true. What I've read suggests that 17th century English was closest to a modern Southern accent, actually.

Dear me.


Was the writer also offering a bridge in Brooklyn, a column in Trafalgar Square and a tower in Paris all extremely cheap ?


What is interesting is that the 'Southern' accent spans the area from Maryland to Texas on the Gulf and down through Florida too.


It is no coincidence that these states represent the Confederate states where there were disproportionate numbers of slaves.

The influence of slave English and the various Creoles on the English spoken by the slaveowners is now more and more accepted by American scholars of socio-linguistics.

That being the case, 'modern Southern' can hardly represent the English spoken in the 17th Century- and in any case, there were roughly 7 main dialects of English in 17th Century England, not to mention the English spoken in Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

One would expect that modern American Southern English would most likely represent the dialect of the largest group of English immigrants in the 17th Century, but I've yet to see much evidence that antique West Country accents have been preserved across the Deep South as a whole.

What you do find in the U.S. on the Eastern seaboard are dialects such as the English spoken on Tangier Island and the dialect of the Sea Islands which is a blend of African languages and English.

In both cases we are talking about isolated communities where many families stayed settled in the same area preserving older pronunciations and usages and where there was relatively little immigration.

This hasn't precluded the change in use of words that dropped out of everyday use on the mainland and in the British Isles, nor has it prevented the uptake of neologisms.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Dear me.


Was the writer also offering a bridge in Brooklyn, a column in Trafalgar Square and a tower in Paris all extremely cheap ?


What is interesting is that the 'Southern' accent spans the area from Maryland to Texas on the Gulf and down through Florida too.


It is no coincidence that these states represent the Confederate states where there were disproportionate numbers of slaves.

The influence of slave English and the various Creoles on the English spoken by the slaveowners is now more and more accepted by American scholars of socio-linguistics.

That being the case, 'modern Southern' can hardly represent the English spoken in the 17th Century- and in any case, there were roughly 7 main dialects of English in 17th Century England, not to mention the English spoken in Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

One would expect that modern American Southern English would most likely represent the dialect of the largest group of English immigrants in the 17th Century, but I've yet to see much evidence that antique West Country accents have been preserved across the Deep South as a whole.

What you do find in the U.S. on the Eastern seaboard are dialects such as the English spoken on Tangier Island and the dialect of the Sea Islands which is a blend of African languages and English.

In both cases we are talking about isolated communities where many families stayed settled in the same area preserving older pronunciations and usages and where there was relatively little immigration.

This hasn't precluded the change in use of words that dropped out of everyday use on the mainland and in the British Isles, nor has it prevented the uptake of neologisms.

To clarify - first,IIUC tangier island, in Chesapeake bay, had few if any slaves. It and nearby Smith Island would be logical places to look for the most archaic dialects. Chesapeake in general is generallly considered the seed area for the lowland Southern dialect. I recall in "Albion's Seed" a case being made that Chesapeake dialect WAS heavily related to West Country. Chesapeake area in general did have plenty of slaves, though not so many as South Carolina, esp the Sea Islands, where there were few whites.

For the most part the Chesapeake dialect moved south along the coast, where it would have encountered african speech, esp in South Carolina. South Carolina also had Hugenot influence. And Charleston was engaged in the "Atlantic maritime speech community", which may have been, IIUC, the source of the dropping of the post vocalic "r", now considered typical of lowland southern speech.

NOte the distinction is lowland southern vs upland southern, the latter being the speech that spread from the Shenandoah to the Carolina backcountry, and across to Tennessee and northern Alabama - several areas of upland dialect are considered part of the "deep south" = notably northern Alabama, and parts of the Carolinas. While the upcountry areas had fewer slaves, there are plenty of other distinctions as well - a greater isolation from the Atlantic, scots Irish and border influences, German settlement, etc.

[Cort Haus]

And Charleston was engaged in the "Atlantic maritime speech community", which may have been, IIUC, the source of the dropping of the post vocalic "r", now considered typical of lowland southern speech.

I love the post-vocalic 'r', if that's the same thing as some Americans and West Country English use in words like 'Helicopterrrr'. Is it a southern thing?

Musically, it works really well at the end of a line.

"Betterrr sounds betterrr than betta". QED, and Gawd bless America.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


To clarify - first,IIUC tangier island, in Chesapeake bay, had few if any slaves.

I never said it did.

What's important is that many of the residents are descended from the same few families (the Crocketts, if I recall were the largest group) and like the inhabitants of the Sea Islands who speak Gullah, they stayed put, with few incomers.

Nonetheless, their language is now not that of 17th Century England.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom


One would expect that modern American Southern English would most likely represent the dialect of the largest group of English immigrants in the 17th Century, but I've yet to see much evidence that antique West Country accents have been preserved across the Deep South as a whole.
.

Which is hardly surprising, seeing as the lowland southern speech charecteristic of the low country from Virginia to Savannah isnt preserved across the deep south as a whole. In particular the Gulf coast, IIUC, is influenced by upland southern, and doesnt drop post-vocalic "r" (not that thats the only distinctive feature of lowland southern dialect)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom


I never said it did.

What's important is that many of the residents are descended from the same few families (the Crocketts, if I recall were the largest group) and like the inhabitants of the Sea Islands who speak Gullah, they stayed put, with few incomers.

Nonetheless, their language is now not that of 17th Century England.

AFAIK, there has been substantial language change in both the America and England since 1600, esp in the nationally "standard" dialects, but also in regional dialects, and there has been some survival of archaisms (not necessarily the same archaism) on each side, and there have also been mutual influences on each side. In which case trying to determine which is "more authentic" is sort of pointless.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


In which case trying to determine which is "more authentic" is sort of pointless.

I'd have though the fact that varieties of both British and American English have progressed since the 17th Century to be so obvious as to be hardly worth pointing out, but if people are going to fall for the 'we speak real Shakespeare like' schtick, well...

Although some of the features of the Outer Banks brogue are retentions of older forms of English that have died out in other contemporary dialects of English - so-called RELIC FORMS - it is important to dispel one of the most common language myths about Outer Banks English: that it represents the preservation of Elizabethan or Shakespearean English. This romantic notion is not uncommon, and has been offered to me as the explanation for Outer Banks speech by observers who include some of my colleagues in the English department as well as casual visitors to the Outer Banks. In fact, at one point in our research on Outer Banks English, a television crew from BBC showed up on the Outer Banks with the plays of William Shakespeare for the residents to read, intending to record the sounds of the bard through the voices of current Outer Banks residents. The crew seemed disappointed but undeterred by my insistence that this was a romantic myth, and several weeks later I received numerous messages from friends around the world informing me that BBC and CNN International networks had aired a story claiming that Shakespearean English had been located on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. I had not convinced the producers of one of the most foundational truths about language - that all languages are constantly changing - but I also learned a lesson about the strength of preconceived language notions and dialect mythmaking.

http://www.outerbeaches.com/OuterBanksCulture

Now, anyone want to buy a pyramid in Egypt, going cheap ?

[Cort Haus]

Molly, what do you know about the 'Yam' and 'Yow' (for 'You') of Black Country speech?

eg : "Yam's a fookah!"

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Molly, what do you know about the 'Yam' and 'Yow' (for 'You') of Black Country speech?

eg : "Yam's a fookah!"

I know enough not to use it, like anyone else born in Coventry.


I had an aunt from Birmingham and we thought her accent was hilarious. Occasionally we'd hear Black Country accents on the local news (A.T.V. as I remember) and we'd think it was like watching Bill and Ben or the Clangers.

I always thought 'Yow' had a vaguely Germanic aspect to it and 'Yam' always reminded me of what my Irish relatives would do when they'd say 'Amn't I not ?'

I never studied the origins of Black Country or Brummagem though- I think growing up nearby put me off. Now Singlish and Scouse I do find fascinating...

Still, the Black Country accent can make me feel all warm, like when I hear Yiddish on the Tube in from Plaistow.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Yeah, Elok or Drake are just annoying pr*cks...

Ha! You're one to talk.

I don't judge their country on them, just them, but they should be aware that many people do...and this is what earns the US such a bad reputation...

The fact that you can't avoid responding to the most basic of trolls?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by molly bloom
I'd have though the fact that varieties of both British and American English have progressed since the 17th Century to be so obvious as to be hardly worth pointing out, but if people are going to fall for the 'we speak real Shakespeare like' schtick, well...

Learn to read. I never claimed anything close to that.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Learn to read. I never claimed anything close to that.

You learn to read better.


I never claimed YOU did.

[Kuciwalker]

FYI, neither did the author of the book I read.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
FYI, neither did the author of the book I read.

Oh that's nice for you. I hadn't claimed your anonymous author said that either.


Just that :

17th century English was closest to a modern Southern accent, actually.

apparently.

Which is still hilarious...