What if Gore hadn't loved our democracy?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Master Zen


So, a party that perpetuates its mandate through electoral fraud is not a dictatorship? Hmmm, looks like the definition of dictatorship by the neolibs is different than that of normal people...

The greatest imperfection in Mexico's democracy is the democracy itself. It is anachronistic, its institutions are not free. This country needs change and the PAN will not work towards that change since it is the party which most benefits.

In any case since your knowledge of the Mexican political scene is apparently so good, you should know that the PRI-PAN a few months ago voted in favor of a reform for the federal regulations comission in charge of the telecommunications market which basically gives duopoly powers to the two main networks. As a show of eternal gratitude the networks were blatantly pro-PAN throughout the campaign. They still are. Tell me, oh great lover of free markets, if this the kind of crap you would tolerate for 6 years in your country.

As for the vote itself, yes it was a reflection of the electoral's wishes... within the margin of error. The country is divided almost evenly between PAN and PRD which is why the closer the tally, the most likely it was indeed influenced by fraud.

Hey, Pipope, how's everything going?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Hey, I'm not the one claiming subliminal messages cost me an election (That's Obrador.) despite the fact that all credible evidence seems to indicate the election was not tainted by fraud.

Lopez Obrador isn't claiming subliminal messages either, he's claiming very direct messages. Get your facts straight.

"All credible evidence" I take it you are so involved in Mexican politics that you reviewed the evidence and concluded it wasn't fraudulent...

C'mon man, this bordering on pathetic...

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DanS
AT&T was a monopoly for about a century. I think that was a sad state of affairs, but it didn't have a profound impact on our democracy.

Right, and the US and Mexico are the exact same country...

My point is if you find it ok that "business-friendly" governments willingly suck up to the interests of the business class in detriment to the interests of a competitive economy and a free media.

You seem to think that everything is better than a leftist in power in Latin America. I'm simply pointing out that our current situation is hardly what I would call better.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Hey, Pipope, how's everything going?

I refuse to speak to you if you keep calling me that...

(plus, I don't live there anymore)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Lopez Obrador isn't claiming subliminal messages either, he's claiming very direct messages. Get your facts straight.

Oh really? He never made that claim?

The court also dismissed Lopez Obrador's claim of subliminal messages in television ads by pro-Calderon businesses.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/09/05/mexico.election.ap/index.html

[DanS]

To be sure, I am against any Latin American politicians coming to power through revolution, when there is a democratic process -- albeit fledgling and imperfect -- for them to gain power.

[MichaeltheGreat]

How exactly do you define "democratic process?"

[Odin]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
How exactly do you define "democratic process?"

"You can vote for anyone you like as long as he's declares kosher by the corporate elites."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by pchang
A fair amount of dead people in the Chicago area and Texas voted for Kennedy. Enough, to swing the electoral votes for Illinois and Texas to Kennedy instead of Nixon (enough to make the margin of victory, in fact). Helps explain Nixon's paranoia in his later years.

Illinois would have gone to Kennedy inspite of Daley's meddling. Texas, I don't know about.

[chequita guevara]

Dino has a fundimental misunderstanding of Mexican "democracy." In 1988, when the election was stolen from Cardenas, I had a friend in Chicago from Michuacan. Two of her cousins were doing electoral work. They disappeared for two weeks before their corpses turned up in ditches.

The PRI is a ruthless organization with no compunction about fraud or murder. They realize that they cannot steal the election for themselves today, but they don't want the PRD elected under any circumstances. Despite the corruption of some PRD govenorships, they have made major strides in cleaning house where they can. The PRI still has a lot of the government jobs and kickbacks and bribes, and they know they can keep that under the PAN. In many places, the PRI controled, they changed votes for them to votes for the PAN. They can't win, but at least they can keep they snouts at the trough if PAN wins.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Oh really? He never made that claim?

The court also dismissed Lopez Obrador's claim of subliminal messages in television ads by pro-Calderon businesses.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

So you're basing your entire knowledge of the Mexican elections on a CNN article in which that particular bit isn't even quoting anything he actually said.

Just so you know (because you obviously don't), there were two parts of the actual lawsuit. 1) cases of specific fraud in specific voting districts 2) pre-electoral acts of illegality which "created a climate of fraud". The first part would legally entitle the PRD to recounts in specific districts (which in the event was only 9%), the second part was meant for the sole purpose of anulling the election.

Claiming subliminal messages is horse**** since that has no legal importance whatsoever. What WAS claimed and argued during the lawsuit was that the federal government and private corporations engaged in illegal campaigning. In Mexico, government and private campaigning are both illegal (yet another thing you probably didn't know) and yet both ocurred previous to july 2. Moreso, the electoral institute pulled a significant number of TV spots from the PAN because they violated electoral ethics... of course, they were pulled one month after they were on the air making such a thing completely pointless since their propaganda purpose was achieved duirng that month (yet another case of blatant siding by the electoral institute against the PAN).

So again, no cookie for you since "subliminal messages" were hardly the groundwork for Lopez Obrador's case which is what you are clearly implying.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DanS
To be sure, I am against any Latin American politicians coming to power through revolution, when there is a democratic process -- albeit fledgling and imperfect -- for them to gain power.

Do you even know the meaning of democracy?

Democracy isn't about elections.

Democracy isn't about having a legislature.

Democracy isn't about having institutions.

There is no democracy when lawmakers ensure institutions are corrupt and serve party interests. There is no democracy when elections are rigged. I cringe when I hear Fox or some other dumb**** talk about "respecting institutions" in this country. THERE IS NOT ONE GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION WORTHY OF RESPECT IN THIS COUNTRY.

What's worse is the double standards that the right applies to people who think this way: "Oh, so you do not respect institutions? You are a radical threat". Umm, wait a second, I very much respect institutions.... that work. Institutions that are transparent, that are accountable, that do not serve private interests. THOSE are the institutions worthy of respect not this pathetic excuse of an electoral institute much less the electoral and supreme courts.

During the course of this week, the pedophiliac governor of Puebla (PRI), a former swindling mayor of Mexico City (PRI), Fox's corrupt businessmen stepsons (PAN), and a Mexico City official who was caught on tape accepting bribes (PRD) were ALL free of charges after various years of trial. The governor and the ex-mayor's cases were all handled by the supreme court.

You seriously tell me straight in my face that this is anything even remotely resembling democracy and that any resolution of the courts in this country should be taken as fact.

You tell me that this "democracy" is worth preserving.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Master Zen
So again, no cookie for you since "subliminal messages" were hardly the groundwork for Lopez Obrador's case which is what you are clearly implying.

I'm really just having fun with it because it's so crazy. I never meant to imply it was the sole crazy thing he claimed. As for the claims about "cases of specific fraud in specific voting districts" they were found to have been insuffcient to change the outcome of the election even after the recount, IIRC.

[notyoueither]

... by a stacked court, if you listen to people who actually live there and might have a clue what is going on.

I find this discussion somewhat alarming.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by notyoueither
... by a stacked court, if you listen to people who actually live there and might have a clue what is going on.

European Union election observers have said they found no significant irregularities in the vote, nye.