What if Gore hadn't loved our democracy?

[Kuciwalker]

The answer to your question depends on whether you believe a corrupt and fraudulent system will be allowed to evolve to democracy, or whether it needs to be broken and a new system built.

It did in the other examples you mentioned, didn't it?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Certainly, the PRD has seats in Congress.

The Alliance for the Good of All holds the second largest block of seats in Congress they hold the possibility to either obstruct the policies they disliked or even to work with the PRI to get laws passed in spite of Calderón's hold on the Presidency. I fail to see how your stance is in anyway helpful to the developemnt of democracy in Mexico.

Obrador himself is a little nuts in some of his accusations

Only a little? Are we even watching the same news programs? Because what I'm seeing is someone ranting about rampant fraud without even being able to prove even the most basic allegations trying to set up a parallel government who's sole purpose will be to question the legitimacy of the elected government without proving that this election was dirty.

he needs to get laid or spend a week at a spa or something, but the underlying point is still valid.

His underlying point is that he wants the presidency no matter the cost.

The PRI is still in power in many of its enclaves

Why was the PRI not able to carry a single state in the presidential election?

[MichaeltheGreat]

If you (a) believe what we have is functional democracy, (b), believe that what applies to a wealthy country in the 19th and early 20th centuries will apply to a poor country in the 21st centurity, (c) believe that the processes of isolated municipal and regional political systems applies also to unrelated national political systems, (d) ignore the effect, or lack thereof, of what was once a truly free press, and (e) assume you can convince the peasantry that it's really good to wait for another hundred years of so.

[Master Zen]

Re: What if Gore hadn't loved our democracy?

Originally posted by DanS
And put his personal ego aside for the good of the country?

I take it "the good of the country" in your book is submission to a corrupt, nepotist, kleptocratic catholi-fascist party who rigged an election, has added billions to the national debt, and is basically just a front for the business elite to continue leeching this country out of what's little left...

[DanS]

Yep. Precisely.

On the other side lies revolution and dictatorship.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The Alliance for the Good of All holds the second largest block of seats in Congress they hold the possibility to either obstruct the policies they disliked or even to work with the PRI to get laws passed in spite of Calderón's hold on the Presidency. I fail to see how your stance is in anyway helpful to the developemnt of democracy in Mexico.

Actually they don't since the PAN-PRI congressional alliance holds over 50% of all congressional boths (in both the senate and the house of deputies. The Coalition can't do sh*t because of that so your point hardly stands.

Only a little? Are we even watching the same news programs? Because what I'm seeing is someone ranting about rampant fraud without even being able to prove even the most basic allegations trying to set up a parallel government who's sole purpose will be to question the legitimacy of the elected government without proving that this election was dirty.

"Hasn't been able to prove it"... hmm. I like to use the frase "his evidence hasn't been accepted by the courts" better. And we all know how transparent, reliable and apoliticial Mexican courts are, right?

(funny though how the right-wing hacks suddenly have faith in the Mexican judicial system...)

Why was the PRI not able to carry a single state in the presidential election?

Again, you are making a moot point. The PRI still holds the grand majority of governorships and municipal presidencies in the entire country. Moreso they are, ultimately the party without which no reform in congress can ever pass because without them nobody will have 50%+1 of the necessary votes. Given that the PAN will have to suck up to the PRI's desires, I fail to see what good can come out of this.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DanS
Yep. Precisely.

On the other side lies revolution and dictatorship.

What's there to lose, we're already in a dictatorship in sheep's clothing.

Oh wait, all the neolibs like you might lose their job... what a pity!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Master Zen
"Hasn't been able to prove it"... hmm. I like to use the frase "his evidence hasn't been accepted by the courts" better.

Damn those subliminal messages!

[DanS]

Mexico doesn't have a dictatorship, or at least dictatorship in any sense that fits the traditional definition of the term. I will grant that there are many imperfections to Mexico's fledgling democracy, but all indications are that the vote was more or less an accurate reflection of the electorate's wishes.

[Odin]

Master Zen PWNS!

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Damn those subliminal messages!

There was nothing subliminal about the PAN's campaign. It was downright dirty and illegal.

There is nothing subliminal about the electoral institute's president being a close personal friend of Calderon and former aide when Calderon was Energy Minister.

There is nothing subliminal about the electoral institute's decision-making council being composed solely by former PRI and PAN members (so much for it being a "civilian" institute) because the PRI-PAN congress block voted against any membership by PRD members.

There is nothing subliminal about the fact that the electoral vote tendencies have been analyzed by local and foreign statistics and mathematic experts which have concluded that they are highly suspicious.

Nice try but no cookie for you.

(btw, another thing that makes me laugh is how the US right-wingers are siding with the Mexican right-wingers... an act of almost brutal ignorance since many of the things that the right stands with here go totally against the values of the US conservative)

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DanS
Mexico doesn't have a dictatorship, or at least dictatorship in any sense that fits the traditional definition of the term. I will grant that there are many imperfections to Mexico's fledgling democracy, but all indications are that the vote was more or less an accurate reflection of the electorate's wishes.

So, a party that perpetuates its mandate through electoral fraud is not a dictatorship? Hmmm, looks like the definition of dictatorship by the neolibs is different than that of normal people...

The greatest imperfection in Mexico's democracy is the democracy itself. It is anachronistic, its institutions are not free. This country needs change and the PAN will not work towards that change since it is the party which most benefits.

In any case since your knowledge of the Mexican political scene is apparently so good, you should know that the PRI-PAN a few months ago voted in favor of a reform for the federal regulations comission in charge of the telecommunications market which basically gives duopoly powers to the two main networks. As a show of eternal gratitude the networks were blatantly pro-PAN throughout the campaign. They still are. Tell me, oh great lover of free markets, if this the kind of crap you would tolerate for 6 years in your country.

As for the vote itself, yes it was a reflection of the electoral's wishes... within the margin of error. The country is divided almost evenly between PAN and PRD which is why the closer the tally, the most likely it was indeed influenced by fraud.

[DinoDoc]

Nice try but no cookie for you.

Hey, I'm not the one claiming subliminal messages cost me an election (That's Obrador.) despite the fact that all credible evidence seems to indicate the election was not tainted by fraud.

[DanS]

Tell me, oh great lover of free markets, if this the kind of crap you would tolerate for 6 years in your country.

AT&T was a monopoly for about a century. I think that was a sad state of affairs, but it didn't have a profound impact on our democracy.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The Alliance for the Good of All holds the second largest block of seats in Congress they hold the possibility to either obstruct the policies they disliked or even to work with the PRI to get laws passed in spite of Calderón's hold on the Presidency. I fail to see how your stance is in anyway helpful to the developemnt of democracy in Mexico.

They can play obstructionist for a little bit, then watch as what little money would ordinarily go into their districts disappears, or other tactics could come back into play. I'm sure that if Raul Salinas' ranch can't hold any more heads, then someone else's could. Or you could just hire some drug muscle, for a little favor. And who do you think the PRI is really allied with? The PRI would like to someday return to more obvious power, but there's a little problem, in that Salinas was just a little too blatant and pushed things too far for the PRI to be even vaguely credible again this soon.

Then again, there are the barbarians at the gate, and in that, the PRI and PAN have common cause. It was pretty readily apparent that the PRI had no serious intent of fighting hard for the presidency once they nominated Madrazo as their candidate. Madrazo lost out to LaBastardita in the 2000 sham primary, but he's an old school patron, and letting him run soothed his ego, paid homage to the hardline PRIistas, but conceded the election. The real agenda of the PRIistas was to make sure that The Evil One didn't win the election, by whatever means necessary. The PAN has largely reached a quid pro quo with the PRI, in that they both represent establishment interests, and that the PAN won't rock the boat too hard, especially so hard that the peasants breach the castle walls.

The only thing that will help the development of democracy in Mexico is the destruction of the present system. That won't happen by armed force, but if the barbarians rattle the gates enough, the elites will start throwing more scraps over the walls to distract them. Eventually, they may throw enough scraps over the wall.

Obrador himself is a little nuts in some of his accusations

Only a little? Are we even watching the same news programs? Because what I'm seeing is someone ranting about rampant fraud without even being able to prove even the most basic allegations trying to set up a parallel government who's sole purpose will be to question the legitimacy of the elected government without proving that this election was dirty.

I try to avoid watching the gringo news about anything outside gringolandia. It's bad enough in northern Mexico. You have to globalize your political perspective. Trent Lott running his mouth about how it's too bad ol' Strom didn't get elected isn't colorful politics, except by US standards. Welcome to the gateway to Latin politics, where political opponents may lose their heads, where you might assassinate your own candidate, and where patronage is alive and well. This is the home of Vicente "Mexicans do the work that even blacks don't want" Fox. American politics is like grits and biscuits without the gravy. Mexican politics has a bit more flavor, and come on, look around you - the Saddam show, Ahmadinejad, Kim, Chavez - Lopez Obrador is only a little nuts in context.

he needs to get laid or spend a week at a spa or something, but the underlying point is still valid.

His underlying point is that he wants the presidency no matter the cost.

Well, he was likely robbed of it, albeit in more subtle ways than he's ranting about. His point, and the points of his followers, may not coincide. That is how the situation will likely resolve - the question is how many bones will be thrown over the wall, and how much meat is on them?

The PRI is still in power in many of its enclaves

Why was the PRI not able to carry a single state in the presidential election?

When they put up Madrazo, it was a signal to everyone (except Madrazo and the dinosaurs, and even they most likely got the hint), that they had no serious intention of contesting the election, as they could work with the PAN (fellow corrupt supporters of the status quo, and I say that as a former supporter of the PANistas), but dreaded pushing Calderon (who is no Fox) so hard that he fell irretrievably behind Lopez Obrador. The PRIista strongholds now are small cities and districts which can be run by a strongman (or woman, in at least one case), through local government. Running entire states at that level is considerably tougher, as Mexican states are not nearly as autonomous or theoretically sovereign as US states. Virtually all taxation is at the national level, with the states and municipalities having revenue doled out to them. Municipalities provide more direct services and have more direct means of funding (and enforcement ), so they are an easier and more efficient unit of government for political machines.