Yanks better convert to Islam, or bad things will happen (AlQaeda)

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by CyberShy
1. gods are beings with authority in someones life
2. gods define the rules
3. gods are being worshipped or feared

Except for the "worshipped" part, that sounds just like my boss

[Robert]

Does your boss have authority over your life? Or does he just tell you what to do at work? (you can quit your work and your boss can't tell you anything at all anymore)

[Elok]

Originally posted by Sikander
Do you know someone who isn't insane who converted to Islam? I don't.

...so...based on purely anecdotal evidence, you're declaring it a prima facie symptom of insanity? DOES-NOT-COMPUTE.

[Whoha]

Hes asking for a... proof of concept

[Robert]

I know a lot of sane people who believe in the evolution from amoebe to human, so yes, I guess there are sane people who believe in the Islam as well.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by CyberShy
1. gods are beings with authority in someones life
2. gods define the rules
3. gods are being worshipped or feared

I do not believe that congressmen are gods, despite the fact that they wield authority, define rules, and are often feared.

they worship themselves as in that they put themselves above everything

This does not match any of the definitions for the term 'worship'. It also contradicts your statement that "Modern atheists insist on things like democracy, liberalism, freedom," i.e., that atheists put things such as democracy, liberalism, and freedom above themselves.

But I do think that you worship yourself because I think that think that you yourself is really important and that you sacrifice a lot of things that improve yourself.

"Thinking that something is important" /= "Worship"

If somebody sacrifices their time to work in a soup kitchen because they think that feeding the homeless is really important, then are they worshipping the homeless or the soup kitchen?

Were the ancient gods of the greek and the romans supernatural?

Yes. Creatures found in nature don't generally hurl lightning bolts.

[lord of the mark]

"I'm afraid it does nothing of the sort. Firstly, what makes you assume that there is a single 'atheism' that fits all sizes ? There isn't."

Just as there no single, Judaism, no single Islam, and no single Christianity, much less any single monotheism.


"Secondly, there are no atheist 'dogmas'. All that is required to be an atheist is not to accept the proposition that there is or are a supernatural deity or deities. There is no Official Church or Cult of atheism to expound dogmas or to hold atheist heretics in contempt of the Revealed Truth of Atheism."

So I take it youre a "Reform" atheist. We Jews debate whether there ARE Jewish dogmas - we have Maimonides 13 principle of faith - but they can be subject to wide interpretation. There can only be a legally "right" interpretation if its possible for halakha, religious law, to apply to questions of dogma, rather than only actions. Most Orthodox claim halakha DOES apply to dogma, most Conservative Jews (pace Schecter) insist it does NOT. This has some very practical implications - not burning or shunning heretics, but determining which rabbis actions and decisions have legal status. Most C rabbis beleive in some degree of human origin of the bible, etc. Orthodox do not. So can Orthodox accept the the LEGAL decisions (including conversion, divorce, etc) of a "heretical" C rabbi? Most O rabbis say they cant, a few, like Hartman and Greenberg, say they can.

[lord of the mark]

Im dont mean to speak for Cybershy, but someone once said, to find a mans "god" ask what they live for. What is the central principle feature of their life? That is their "god" Obviously thats not what we normally mean by "god" in day to day discourse, but its the central question to ask. One would find that "atheists" dont all have the same "god" though they all have a "god". One would also find that many self proclaimed theists actually have as "god" something other than G-d - they worship the self, the state, money, sex, alcohol, fame - the same things "atheists" worship. The question is really a way to refocus yourself on whats important, and on how and whether an ultimate reality and mysteriy of life can be your "god", and if it can be, what that means.

Things to contemplate as the "Days of Awe" approach.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by loinburger
If somebody sacrifices their time to work in a soup kitchen because they think that feeding the homeless is really important, then are they worshipping the homeless or the soup kitchen?

It depends on intention, obviously. If I pour out wine from my glass, is it worship? If I do it because Ive overfilled it, and am afraid i will spill it on my clothes, or if I do so to honor Bacchus, its not quite the same thing.

I know people who would go to work in a soup kitchen as a way of worshiping the God of Israel, and think so explicitly. One could go in order to feel good about oneself. One could go because one believed mainly in relieving the physical sufferings of the poor. One could go in order to honor the souls of the poor, out of a deep sense of connectedness among all human souls. Whether, and in what way, these constitute "worship" is a complex matter.

[Arrian]

@ Cybershy. Great threadjack, though. You've been honing the "atheism is a religion" schtick for some time, to better and better effect. You even have otherwise reasonable people defending you now. Impressive.

Re: Al-Q's call for conversion. My response is two words, only one of which is printable.

-Arrian

p.s. WHO DOES NUMBER TWO WORK FOR?!?

[lord of the mark]

"
"Secondly, there are no atheist 'dogmas'. All that is required to be an atheist is not to accept the proposition that there is or are a supernatural deity or deities.

not necessarily. Rabbi Mordechai Kaplan, of Blessed Memory, insisted there was no supernatural deity, and that the word God should be applied to "the forces in nature that make salvation" (THATs not a simple thing, of course, and there is evidence, IIUC, that Kaplans views on what those forces were, and what it meant to "make salvation" changed over the course of his life) Kaplan insisted to the end of his long life that he was no atheist.

Of course that didnt stop the wags from saying

"There is no god, and Kaplan is his prophet"

Saying which does NOT constitute conversion to Islam, to come back on topic

[Bosh]

Originally posted by ajbera
2) Atheism isn't religion per se, but since Reason alone is incapable of proving the non-existence of the supernatural, it relies on Faith to reach its conclusion. So atheism has more in common with theism than agnosticism.

Anti-Invisible Pink Unicornism isn't a religion per se, but since Reason along is incapable of proving the non-existance of Invisible Pink Unicorns, it relies on Faith to reach its conclusion. So Anti-Invisible Pink Unicornism has more in common with theism than agnosticism.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Bosh

Anti-Invisible Pink Unicornism isn't a religion per se, but since Reason along is incapable of proving the non-existance of Invisible Pink Unicorns, it relies on Faith to reach its conclusion. So Anti-Invisible Pink Unicornism has more in common with theism than agnosticism.

Carl Sagan believed there was intelligent life somewhere else in the galaxy.

John Doe, when hes not taking his meds, KNOWs that theres intelligent life, they live on a planet exactly 200 light years away, that they are 7 feet tall have blue skins and three eyes, and that they all support Universal Health Care.

Now Sagans congectures are debatable, and may be wrong, but to mock them by comparing them to Mr Does beliefs only shows the ignorance of the mocker.

Now Mr Sagan would explain why IF ET intel life exists, its impossible at this time to say what they look like, etc.

[SlowwHand]

In regard to Number 2 being replaced, is the thought here that they should just skip down, and not appoint a new Number 2? Retire the number like in sports?

[Elok]

Well, yes, Bosh, that's strictly speaking true. If you positively believed in the nonexistence of [whatever lame parody is currently popular among atheists], that too would be dependent on "faith" of a sort.

Loin: This is sort of beside the point, but I don't believe the ancient Greco-Roman gods were supernatural, strictly speaking. They came out of the natural world, which preceded them. They were largely incarnations of its power, and powers like hurling thunderbolts weren't exactly excluded from other creatures in the ancient imagination. Just look at the basilisk (er, figuratively, that is).

Now, how relevant this is to Shy's discussion I don't know, because I can't be arsed to pay attention to each and every troll.