History Of Bosnia

[VetLegion]

Ok, I think it's about time we shed some light on this very important topic.

I have my opinion, but I'm interested in what others have to say.

Is Bosnia historically Croatian land, Serbian land, or independent land?

Are Bosniaks (Bošnjaci - bosnian muslims) islamized Croats, Serbs or something else entirely?

[lord of the mark]

I was under the vague impression that Bosnia was converted to Catholicism by Franciscan friars, and that there was never a fully developed RC hierarchy. So it was on the Catholic side of the civilizational divide, but was distinctive, and wasnt quite Croat. Ergo the Bosniaks are Islamized South Slavs, and the attempt to assign them to either the Croats or Serbs, is something of an anachronism.

[VetLegion]

Well, it is true that they are a very young nation, if we define nation as group with common language, culture, history and self-awareness. They were completely formed only as late as second half of 20th century. The question what they were before is therefore valid, as well speculation as to what they might have become.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Well, it is true that they are a very young nation, if we define nation as group with common language, culture, history and self-awareness. They were completely formed only as late as second half of 20th century. The question what they were before is therefore valid, as well speculation as to what they might have become.

what they WERE - again, my impression is they were a distinct feudal entity owing allegiance to Hungary. They were Christians, but not quite RC.

I dont know what they would have become - it depends on the change you make that starts history in a different direction.

[Gangerolf]

They are all obviously the same people, south slavs (same language, same sljivovica), conquered/influenced by different outside powers; catholisism, orthodox and islam.

[Sava]

Re: History Of Bosnia

Originally posted by VetLegion
Ok, I think it's about time we shed some light on this very important topic.

I have my opinion, but I'm interested in what others have to say.

Is Bosnia historically Croatian land, Serbian land, or independent land?

Are Bosniaks (Bošnjaci - bosnian muslims) islamized Croats, Serbs or something else entirely?

It's nobody's land. Whoever has the power to take it... it's theirs.

Historically? Well, at one point just about everyone controlled it.

As for identifying a certain group of people. Let them identify themselves however they like. Croats are Croats (Catholic), Serbs are Serbs (Orthodox)... Bosnians are their own people (Muslim)...

This is all about religion. Everyone speaks (essentially) the same language. But nobody can get along because of religion. It's ridiculous.

You think that is how God (whichever faith you believe in) wants you to honor him? To hate your enemy more than you love your children? To fight amongst each other because you happen to believe in different faiths? And I'm speaking just rhetorically now... but still, it's frustrating because this is where I've come from. I see the violence and I just wonder "Why?".



Oh well, I trailed off a little there.

[Hueij]

Bosnia is something of a national trauma over here...

[Rasbelin]

Re: History Of Bosnia

Originally posted by VetLegion

Is Bosnia historically Croatian land, Serbian land, or independent land?

Is this a warm-up question ahead of the actual Teh Question(tm) "Is Macedonia independent or Greek"? I know you better than well, Vet...

[Barnabas]

I think the three are the same people, they just have different religions.

[Blaupanzer]

Under Austria-Hungary, the province was called Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was said to consist of Muslim Slavs, whatever those are. The Turks regarded them as a "loyal" European province, probably meaning as compared to Croatia, Serbia, Wallachia, and so forth. This "loyalty" was displayed primarily by their religious adherance without becoming a player in Court politics, unlike the Albanians for instance.

Why did most of the people in this province convert to Islam? I do not know, but it would be interesting to know. Also where or what is Herzegovina? Note the Montenegrins made a big point out of distinguishing themselves from the Dalmatians and the Herzegovinans throughout the middle ages. Both of those other peoples, as distinct nationalities, seem to have disappeared.

[Bosh]

A lot of the Bosnians were historically Bogomils (similar to Albigensians) instead of more standard Christians and this is usually used to explain why they turned Muslim...

[Ecthy]

Bosh, can you elaborate on how the branch of Christianity they adhered to would impact the chance of their converting to Islam? I always thought they'd converted in the dimensions they did because they were the weakest economic group and thus couldn't afford paying Ottoman head tax.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Bosh, can you elaborate on how the branch of Christianity they adhered to would impact the chance of their converting to Islam? I always thought they'd converted in the dimensions they did because they were the weakest economic group and thus couldn't afford paying Ottoman head tax.

I'm not sure why but it seems like its often the more minority Christian groups that converted to Islam in the biggest numbers, for example the Monophysites and the Nestorians. Maybe its because after they were conquered they didn't have the outside support network that the Catholics and the Orthodox had.

[Ecthy]

Outside support network, in the middle ages? How'd that work?

I might be a gloating historian in training but the middle ages evade my mind

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
Why did most of the people in this province convert to Islam?

They were coerced. Christians (catholic or orthodox), like Jews, are of the Ibrahimic religions, so not given the usual 'convert-or-die' choice. They can keep their faith as a 'protected' people ('dhimmi').

However, under the dhimmi system, non-muslims are second-class citizens, who will basically go nowhere in society without converting. So the Bosnian Croats and Serbs must be the descendants of stubborn adherents to the original faith who preferred oppression to conversion.

AIUI this is why the population of Sarejevo is predominantly Muslim, as the only decent work for non-muslims was farming the tough mountain soil. This obviously required a lot more land to sustain yourself than a Muslim civil servant in Sarejevo, a fact ignored by the wartime Muslim claims for land proportional to their numbers.