History Of Bosnia

[Cort Haus]

Re: History Of Bosnia

Originally posted by VetLegion
Is Bosnia historically Croatian land, Serbian land, or independent land?

Croatia and Serbia should carve it up between them, imo.

Are Bosniaks (Bošnjaci - bosnian muslims) islamized Croats, Serbs or something else entirely?

Islamized Croats and Serbs, I believe.

[Cort Haus]

Why did most of the people in this province convert to Islam?

And another thing - its not most. There are more Bosnian Croats & Serbs than Muslims, last time I checked.

Also the claiming of the 'Bosnian' identity by the Muslim side is BS. The Croats and Serbs are Bosnians too, but no - the Muslims want Bosnia to be all about them - which is precisely what the Western overlords of the province have been encouraging for over 10 years now.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

Why did most of the people in this province convert to Islam?

And another thing - its not most. There are more Bosnian Croats & Serbs than Muslims, last time I checked.

Also the claiming of the 'Bosnian' identity by the Muslim side is BS. The Croats and Serbs are Bosnians too, but no - the Muslims want Bosnia to be all about them - which is precisely what the Western overlords of the province have been encouraging for over 10 years now.

1. The Croats and Serbs have alternative states to identify with, or migrate to if they wish. The Bosnian Muslims dont.

2. In the referendum on Bosnian independence, the Croats largely voted with the Bosniaks, which is how the referendum won. Now maybe the Croats were being strategic, but thats how Bosnia became a state.

3. IIUC during the civil war most secular urban Saravejans supported Bosnia. Its more than a religion thing, its a question of national identity, which has been somewhat fluid.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: History Of Bosnia

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Croatia and Serbia should carve it up between them, imo.
.

Of couse OP didnt ask what SHOULD be done with them. He asked what it was HISTORICALLY.

This is a history forum, NOT the OT. Lets try to keep it to discussions of what happened, with interpretations, not recommendations for current policy makers.

[Cort Haus]

Yeah, I see now that I wasn't really answering the question properly, but there's no need to shout.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
2. In the referendum on Bosnian independence, the Croats largely voted with the Bosniaks, which is how the referendum won. Now maybe the Croats were being strategic, but thats how Bosnia became a state.

The referendum of February 29, 1992 required 66.6% of of eligible voters to vote in favor of secession, according to the 1974 Bosnian Constitution. It got 62%, implying that Bosnia became a state illegally.

A vote we very rarely hear about is the 1990 Bosnian elections, where the secular muslim Fikret Abdic scored the highest number of votes, yet somehow the Islamist Izetbegovic took the presidency. During the Bosian War Abdic fought on the Serbian side against Izetbegovic.

[Cort Haus]

Re: History Of Bosnia

Originally posted by VetLegion
Is Bosnia historically Croatian land, Serbian land, or independent land?

OK, my proper, troll-free answer now:

none of the above. Historically it spends most of its time being ruled as a province by a foreign empire.

[VetLegion]

Unlike lotm, I'm not opposed to a bit of opinion thrown into a discussion

AFAIR, Bosnian referendum for independence was boycotted by the Serbs, though I'd have to check to be sure.

[VetLegion]

Also where or what is Herzegovina?

It's a region in southwest Bosnia. The name comes form "Herceg", a title which parallels "Duke" or something like that. West part is inhabited by mostly Croats, east part by Serbs, with Muslims here and there. Here's a map:



It was never an ethnicity/nation.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by VetLegion
AFAIR, Bosnian referendum for independence was boycotted by the Serbs, though I'd have to check to be sure.

It was boycotted. But a boycott is the same as a 'No', consitutionally in this case. Active support from 2/3 of Bosnians were required to legally secede, and 2/3 of Bosnians didn't actively register their support for secession.

[VetLegion]

I haven't read it entirely, but a search through the 1974. Constitution (full text in Slovenian) doesn't mention any percentages. Maybe I didn't use the right keywords. Do you know which of its ~500 articles (the longest Constitution ever ) mentions them?

Also, boycott isn't a no, it's a boycott. In legalese it's all about fine points.

[Cort Haus]

It's in the 52nd amendment, apparantly.

[VetLegion]

I am interested in checking but It took me ages to find an online version and it doesn't have amendments. I should purchase the booklet one day.

I'd expect that if a 2/3 majority is specified, it pertains only to those who bother to show up, not total population.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Unlike lotm, I'm not opposed to a bit of opinion thrown into a discussion

AFAIR, Bosnian referendum for independence was boycotted by the Serbs, though I'd have to check to be sure.

Ive got nothing against opinion. Lots of stuff in history is a matter of opinion. Was Lee an overated general? Was the Ottoman empire the best rule the Balkans ever had? But opinions about current topics ("should Bosnia be partitioned?", "Is the Israeli claim to the Land of Israel justified?") are going to mean arguments about philosophy and current politics, that only incidentally bring in historical questions. Best to discuss the shoulds in OT, and then come here when theres a historical question, like the nature of the events of 1991, or, as the OP asked, the nature of Bosnia in 1200.

[lord of the mark]

2/3 of the total electorate is pretty demanding. What did Croatia get when IT seceded? Sounds like a provision designed to make secession impossible, even while putting it in the constitution. Which is not surprising, considering that the 1974 constitution was written by the Titoists, who werent really interested in seeing secession.

My understanding is that in 1991, what was more important in shaping events was the an absolute majority of the voters, including Croats as well as Bosniaks, voted yes, and this impacted international views of the legitimacy of Bosnian independence, aside from the provisions of the Yugo constitution.