Cuba & Venezuela

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by cronos_qc

Venezuela believe in laissez-faire market; take that Commies!

"Laissez-Faire" as in "let them keep sending us their money and we'll let them do whatever they want"

[Flubber]

Originally posted by snoopy369
We should embargo them for the simple reason that they nationalized various properties belonging to US businesses. Until we prove to foreign powers that we will not allow American property to be nationalized, they'll keep doing it ...

Thats why I say seize venezualen property in the US like those 3 refineries !!

[Flubber]

quote:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/.../4/210342.shtml

Venezuela: No Oil Embargo on U.S.

Venezuela's U.N. ambassador tells NewsMax that President Hugo Chavez will not use oil exports as a weapon against the Bush White House for support of Israel's confrontation with Hezbollah.

More than 60 percent of Venezuela's oil income comes from U.S. sales.

Its also America's largest single source of imported oil.

Hmm I know this is 2004 data but it had venezuala 4th

Rank Country of Origin Thousand Barrels/day
1 Canada 1,616
2 Mexico 1,598
3 Saudi Arabia 1,495
4 Venezuela 1,297
5 Nigeria 1,078


I appreciate that the gaps were not large and than Ven could now be #1 but I did not think that that was the case

http://physics.ius.edu/~kyle/P310/crudebycountry.htm

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Flubber
Since lessened supply generally means HIGHER PRICES, the benefit of low gas prices from this regime have probably only been felt by people Chavez is directly supporting

The Venezuelans.

[DinoDoc]

Let's not forget the Cubans.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by snoopy369
We should embargo them for the simple reason that they nationalized various properties belonging to US businesses. Until we prove to foreign powers that we will not allow American property to be nationalized, they'll keep doing it ...

What do you think all those dirty wars in the 70s and 80s were about? Anyway, those businesses were compensated.

Also, ceasing to buy oil from Venezuela would hurt us more than it would hurt them.

[Ecthy]

M Bison

Chavez

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


What do you think all those dirty wars in the 70s and 80s were about? Anyway, those businesses were compensated.

If you mean businesses in Venezuala were compensated, I think it was along these lines " Take this sum that is way less than market value or these nice guys with machine guns will explain it more slowly"

I believe in investment. I think it is crap for ANY government to have investors take all the risk of oil exploration and THEN if something is found , say thanks and see ya

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


Ya like thats really going to happen-- But continue to live that dream kid

You don't seem to know much about world history and political science.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Flubber
I would never deny the US right to trade as they please but when an OP mentions the "morality" of an issue it does seem fair comment to mention that the US trades regularly with far worse regimes.

I think the embargo is stupid and will personally trade in Cuba relatively often. The uncrowded beaches are simply gorgeous.

All misappropriated by the state. Really, if the thing you dislike is misappropriation, then Cuba should be on top of your avoid list. The Cuban state hasn't settled these claims and they still come up from time to time. F.e., the WSJ had an article the other day about Bacardi's and the Cuban gov't's US trademarks.

You've got a million Cuban exiles 50 miles away in the US with similar tales of woe at the hands of the Cuban gov't. By and large they've spent their time here productively. This is going to hit the island like a ton of bricks.

I wasn't aware of Ven.'s attempts to cut US ties. Wouldn't that be a slam if the US government cited "the need for benefits for the people from the refining of petroleum coupled with reciprocity for the treatment of US enterprises in Venezuala " and expropriated those 3 Citgo refineries. I'm sure they could even match Chavez's actions and offer a fraction of their valuie as a "fair price" with the alternative being getting nothing.

I don't know the laws involved, to be honest. But from what little I have seen of our MO with regard to Iraq and like countries is that we freeze the country's assets. Then there's a free-for-all as attorneys make claims on the assets. The countries can't pay their attys' fees and default on these actions. The administration can quash/continue these actions, if it chooses, so it's a pretty big stick to wield. I don't think it's good to give attorneys free meal tickets, but there you are. Not that we can't do something more direct, like you described, but I haven't seen it.

Besides, Chavez is impairing the value of his US refineries of his own accord (it's so retarded, it's not even something we would do out of spite). Maybe the gas stations and the brand are the more valuable assets, at least the gas stations that aren't franchises. I don't know.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You don't seem to know much about world history and political science.

nah I guess my degree in political science is for naught.


I don't think communism will ever die completely, nor should it.

But the dream of the dominos rolling through all of South America mexico and into the US and Canada

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Let's not forget the Cubans.

Yes, and the Bolivians

All in all, it's been pretty successful at distributing wealth to people that need it

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
If you mean businesses in Venezuala were compensated, I think it was along these lines "Take this sum that is way less than market value or these nice guys with machine guns will explain it more slowly"

It was more along the lines of, you are no longer using this factory and have shut down operations? Fine, we'll take it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
All misappropriated by the state. Really, if the thing you dislike is misappropriation, then Cuba should be on top of your avoid list. The Cuban state hasn't settled these claims

Yes they did. Cuba offered the companies their self-stated value. The companies refused to take it, because they'd low-balled their values to cheat Cuba out of taxes under Batista. Sucks to be them. Perfectly fair though.

[Jon Miller]

The issue is that companies can screw over nations, and once the nation decides they can't screw them over anymore, they change (or change the nation) and everything is forgiven.

But if a nation screws over a corporation, it is never forgive/isn't right/etc. Even if it isn't really screwing over the corporation, rather getting even for the corporation screwing over the nation.

Laws can change so that a company is taxed more or less, all nationalization is is 100% taxation (to make up for unfair taxation in the past).

JM