Cuba & Venezuela

[Sandman]

Commie-Nazi, perhaps. Or Islam-O-fascist.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I definitely owuldn't want a "normalization" of the US relationship with Cuba before the post-Castro regime (be it communist or capitalist) become firmly established by the Cubans themselves. A "normalization" of the relationship would involve the US cocaclonizing all of Cuba, and turning the island back to its bordello status.
I also think that if the US had a free hand in Cuba, it would become destitute and desperate like pretty much any caribbean nation.

I would see no problem with the US normalizing its relationship with Venezuela. The regime might even become less Chavez-centred (and thus less of an elective dictatorship) if the US stopped supporting the cabal that wants to turn Venezuela back to the "good old days" where the country's riches all served the interests of a small aristocracy.

Re Cuba, due to the considerable number of Cuban exiles in the US, Cuba's future is joined at the hip with the US. It's a fact of history and geography.

Re Venezuela, our relations are normal right now. They can only become less normal. I will say that Venezuela was a screwed up country before Chavez, but at least the previous rulers ran the oil industry in a professional manner and kept the country a going concern.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Flubber
I don't think the US should embargo anyone because they happen to be communist/populist. The US continuing trade with China makes embargos on a country like Cuba seem hypocritical at best.

Of course, there is a certain contradiction. But our commerce is something that is ours and that we have every right to control as we see fit. Hypocricy doesn't enter into it.

Re Venezuela, I think it is trying hard to exit the US business because of the very things that you mention. But as you probably know, the US is pretty much Venezuela's sole market. Even if they sold Citgo and its refineries, they would have to build new refineries elsewhere to refine the country's heavy oil. But in any event, this just shows how retarded Chavez is. He has a steady market nearby for his oil, and he just wants to trash the relationship and start over with China or whoever. Lots of Citgo ads on TV now, leading me to believe they are prepping the company for sale. I wonder whether the refineries will fetch much because the prospect of lack of supply soon.

[Grandpa Troll]

It allways amazes me when I see the problems associated with Venezuela spoken of.

Our Industry has been importing Portland Cement from them for years.

We get a large amount from the Caribbean as a whole.

Apparently, economics are not totally outside of the relationship building blocks.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by DanS


Of course, there is a certain contradiction. But our commerce is something that is ours and that we have every right to control as we see fit. Hypocricy doesn't enter into it.

I would never deny the US right to trade as they please but when an OP mentions the "morality" of an issue it does seem fair comment to mention that the US trades regularly with far worse regimes.

I think the embargo is stupid and will personally trade in Cuba relatively often. The uncrowded beaches are simply gorgeous.

Originally posted by DanS

Re Venezuela, I think it is trying hard to exit the US business because of the very things that you mention. But as you probably know, the US is pretty much Venezuela's sole market. Even if they sold Citgo and its refineries, they would have to build new refineries elsewhere to refine the country's heavy oil. But in any event, this just shows how retarded Chavez is. He has a steady market nearby for his oil, and he just wants to trash the relationship and start over with China or whoever.

I wasn't aware of Ven.'s attempts to cut US ties. Wouldn't that be a slam if the US government cited "the need for benefits for the people from the refining of petroleum coupled with reciprocity for the treatment of US enterprises in Venezuala " and expropriated those 3 Citgo refineries. I'm sure they could even match Chavez's actions and offer a fraction of their valuie as a "fair price" with the alternative being getting nothing.

If the US, FRance and Brazil all did this ( I think therse were three countries that had their businesses screwed the worst), I suspect Chavez would more than notice

[GePap]

Yeah, with oil prices so high, cut out one of the main suppliers to the uS, cause heavens knows the Venezuelans would be unable to find other buyers for their oil....

Last time I checked, the US has normal diplomatic relations with venezuela (our ambassador is there, theirs is in Washignton). They are simple tense.

[Dis]

I'm all for supporting commie regimes if it leads to lower gas prices.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by GePap
Yeah, with oil prices so high, cut out one of the main suppliers to the uS, cause heavens knows the Venezuelans would be unable to find other buyers for their oil....

Last time I checked, the US has normal diplomatic relations with venezuela (our ambassador is there, theirs is in Washignton). They are simple tense.

I never advised an embargo-- I just think that if a country expropriates stuff belonging to foreign investors, they should expect the same treatment in return. If Ven. did not sell oil to the US (in retaliation) there would be a small supply ripple before everyone adjusted again. It is a world market after all and as long as Ven.'s production is being sold, the overall supply/demand situation would remain unchanged

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Dis
I'm all for supporting commie regimes if it leads to lower gas prices.

Here there is a good argument that the Chavez regime has led to REDUCED Ven. supply. Apparently the current and projected rates of production are far below what the oil companies had planned ( by several hundred thousand barrells a day IIRC)

Since lessened supply generally means HIGHER PRICES, the benefit of low gas prices from this regime have probably only been felt by people Chavez is directly supporting

[Dis]

little oil is better than no oil. What choice do we have? Embargos are silly, and really did nothing for cuba (or for us). We aren't going to get rid of him. May as well try to work with him best we can.

[Flubber]

A one country embargo on a single major oil producer is doubly silly. Venezuala would end up selling to someone else and the US buying from someone else and all that would happen is that a bit more stuff might be tankered further in a very silly exercise

[Odin]

Dan, Chavez isn't a despot.

[CrONoS]

Seems to be true, that's why I called him "soft" despot, or like someone said earlier in this thread; a demagogue, populist. Etc...

And it's my error for my first post of this thread;
USA doesn't seems to have any real trade embargo vs Venezuela; the only embargo that Venezuela seems to have is a arms/weapon embargo.


Venezuela have taken many action against foreign investor

Originally posted by Odin
Dan, Chavez isn't a despot.

[CrONoS]

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/8/4/210342.shtml

Venezuela: No Oil Embargo on U.S.

Venezuela's U.N. ambassador tells NewsMax that President Hugo Chavez will not use oil exports as a weapon against the Bush White House for support of Israel's confrontation with Hezbollah.

More than 60 percent of Venezuela's oil income comes from U.S. sales.

Its also America's largest single source of imported oil.

Rumors about a possible reduction in Venezuelan oil exports to the U.S. had been circulating in commodities markets since Israel's confrontation with Hezbollah began on July 12.

"No, we are not considering any oil embargo, Venezuela believes in a laissez-faire market," proclaimed Francisco Javier Arias-Cardenas, Venezuela's new U.N. representative.

he ambassador also told NewsMax that despite "sympathies" for Hezbollah, the Venezuelan government has no intention to provide any suppport (financial or political) to the Lebanese terrorist group.

Venezuela is currently locked in an intense battle with Guatemala to gain a non-permanent seat on the Security Council when new members are seated on Jan. 1, 2007.

Ten of the 15 members of the council serve two-year terms.

Venezuela believe in laissez-faire market; take that Commies!

[snoopy369]

We should embargo them for the simple reason that they nationalized various properties belonging to US businesses. Until we prove to foreign powers that we will not allow American property to be nationalized, they'll keep doing it ...