Cuba & Venezuela

[RGBVideo]

We should embargo them for the simple reason that they nationalized various properties belonging to US businesses.

It's better to keep doing business as usual with them, that way when their economy goes to crapper after 10 or so years of socialist policies, they can't blame uncle Sam for it like Cuba does.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
But the dream of the dominos rolling through all of South America mexico and into the US and Canada

I know. It's going to start right here in the US, but most of you capitalists think it will start somewhere else.

[DanS]

Flubber: FYI, the following today from FT...

China plans $5bn energy investment in Venezuela

CARACAS, Venezuela, Aug 28 (Reuters)

China will invest around $5 billion in energy projects in Venezuela by 2012 as part of a plan to boost Venezuela’s oil output, the nations’ energy minister told state television on Monday.

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Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez just completed a visit to China to sign cooperation accords as part of an effort to reduce the South American nation’s dependence on U.S. energy markets.

China will invest around $5 billion in energy projects in Venezuela by 2012 as part of a plan to boost Venezuela’s oil output, the nations’ energy minister told state television on Monday.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez just completed a visit to China to sign cooperation accords as part of an effort to reduce the South American nation’s dependence on U.S. energy markets.

Rafael Ramirez said China’s participation in Venezuela energy ventures would “require in first instance around $5 billion in investment.”

He added, “This is very important because it is investment that we are attracting from China to Venezuela as part of ... our increase in (oil) production, which by 2012 will be at 5.8 million barrels per day.”

Ramirez said this figure included investment in energy operations such as a joint venture to operate the Zumano fields in eastern Venezuela, and investment by China’s CNPC in the Junin 4 block of the Orinoco heavy crude belt.

Chinese energy company Sinopec will participate in the development of an oil block in the Gulf of Paria in eastern Venezuela, Ramirez said.

He said part of the $5 billion would go toward two oilfield agreements with CNPC that were signed earlier this year.

Venezuela, the world’s No. 5 oil exporter, is planning to boost oil production to 5.8 million barrels per day from current official production levels of 3.3 million bpd.

Market watchers say Venezuela is only producing around 2.5 million bpd and some say state oil company PDVSA never recovered from a grueling two-month strike launched in late 2002.

Chavez, a key leftist leader in Latin America who is openly confrontational with the United States, has repeatedly threatened to cut off exports to the U.S. if Washington moves against him.

He has aggressively courted energy-hungry China as part of his search for new buyers of Venezuelan crude. Venezuela currently provides around 12 percent of U.S. oil imports.

Rafael Ramirez said China’s participation in Venezuela energy ventures would “require in first instance around $5 billion in investment.”

He added, “This is very important because it is investment that we are attracting from China to Venezuela as part of ... our increase in (oil) production, which by 2012 will be at 5.8 million barrels per day.”

Ramirez said this figure included investment in energy operations such as a joint venture to operate the Zumano fields in eastern Venezuela, and investment by China’s CNPC in the Junin 4 block of the Orinoco heavy crude belt.

Chinese energy company Sinopec will participate in the development of an oil block in the Gulf of Paria in eastern Venezuela, Ramirez said.

He said part of the $5 billion would go toward two oilfield agreements with CNPC that were signed earlier this year.

Venezuela, the world’s No. 5 oil exporter, is planning to boost oil production to 5.8 million barrels per day from current official production levels of 3.3 million bpd.

Market watchers say Venezuela is only producing around 2.5 million bpd and some say state oil company PDVSA never recovered from a grueling two-month strike launched in late 2002.

Chavez, a key leftist leader in Latin America who is openly confrontational with the United States, has repeatedly threatened to cut off exports to the U.S. if Washington moves against him.

He has aggressively courted energy-hungry China as part of his search for new buyers of Venezuelan crude. Venezuela currently provides around 12 percent of U.S. oil imports.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
Chavez is a despot now? What happened to demagogue?

his demagoguery got him into a position where he could start implementing limitations on press freedoms, on division of powers, etc that move him in the direction of being a despot. Thats why being a demagogue tends to be a bad thing.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by VJ

It's better to keep doing business as usual with them, that way when their economy goes to crapper after 10 or so years of socialist policies, they can't blame uncle Sam for it like Cuba does.

This is not necessarily a wrong POV. I tend to agree.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by DanS
All misappropriated by the state. Really, if the thing you dislike is misappropriation, then Cuba should be on top of your avoid list. The Cuban state hasn't settled these claims

Yes they did. Cuba offered the companies their self-stated value. The companies refused to take it, because they'd low-balled their values to cheat Cuba out of taxes under Batista. Sucks to be them. Perfectly fair though.

Is it a general principle of international law that a value declared for tax purposes overrides actual value in a compensation case? I dont think it does.

Domestically, under assesment of real estate has been routine in the US. I dont think in a (domestic)case relating to compensation, that would matter.

[Jon Miller]

My understanding is that basically Cuba said that the corporations had been defrauding the Cuba, by collusion with the government of the time. As such, punative damages were assessed.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


This is not necessarily a wrong POV. I tend to agree.

The're still going to have the best cigars.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Is it a general principle of international law that a value declared for tax purposes overrides actual value in a compensation case? I dont think it does.

I don't think international law cares about it.

At any rate, who decides what is "actual value?" It's all funny numbers on the books...

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Is it a general principle of international law that a value declared for tax purposes overrides actual value in a compensation case? I dont think it does.

International law doesn't have a say in the matter. Anyway, in the paper today it read that U.S. property claims on Cuba are worth about 1.8 billion, though I assume that those claims are self-inflated. Cuba claims the U.S. has done more than $50 billion in damages through acts of terrorism as well as the economic blockade.

Domestically, under assesment of real estate has been routine in the US. I dont think in a (domestic)case relating to compensation, that would matter.

The difference is here the government does the assessing. If it's under-assesed, it's the government's fault, not yours. Consider what would happen if you under-reported your income to the IRS. They'd own your ass.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I don't think international law cares about it.

At any rate, who decides what is "actual value?" It's all funny numbers on the books...

I concur, like someone saying "fair market value". I battle this all the time, some fellow producers dont require as much bottom line as we strive for. We are constantly reinvesting on our fleet and on our plant and the environmental necessities that have been mandated. That money has to come from somewhere.

I just find it funny when someone puts a figure down and then says "This is the number"


"Actual Value" has so many contributing factors. Supply and demand, production capabilities, efficiencies rating, ect.

Gramps

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
My understanding is that basically Cuba said that the corporations had been defrauding the Cuba, by collusion with the government of the time. As such, punative damages were assessed.

JM

They wrote a law that said that the companies belonged to Cuba. All legal fine and legal in Cuba, but confiscation under international law.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Cuba claims the U.S. has done more than $50 billion in damages through acts of terrorism as well as the economic blockade.

There is no blockade, though the Cuban propogandists have done their job well, convincing the American left to change the very definition of the word blockade. It is actually an embargo, completely legal and something that the Cuban government uses more often than the U.S. government.

[atawa]

Originally posted by Sikander


They wrote a law that said that the companies belonged to Cuba. All legal fine and legal in Cuba, but confiscation under international law.

As long as the US doesnt obey international law themselves they shouldnt complain imo.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Is it a general principle of international law that a value declared for tax purposes overrides actual value in a compensation case? I dont think it does.

International law doesn't have a say in the matter. Anyway, in the paper today it read that U.S. property claims on Cuba are worth about 1.8 billion, though I assume that those claims are self-inflated. Cuba claims the U.S. has done more than $50 billion in damages through acts of terrorism as well as the economic blockade.

Domestically, under assesment of real estate has been routine in the US. I dont think in a (domestic)case relating to compensation, that would matter.

The difference is here the government does the assessing. If it's under-assesed, it's the government's fault, not yours. Consider what would happen if you under-reported your income to the IRS. They'd own your ass.

own you ass they might, but it wouldnt change the fair value of any assets. It was the job of the Bautista govt to audit firm values. If they didnt then they, who were the Cuban govt, accepted the values.