Farm Subsidies (Doha)

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
I equated efficiency with making profit.

Okay. I equated efficiency with producing stuff people want in the quantities desired. Usually that does turn a profit.

[Flip McWho]

Thats not really efficiency. Efficiency is the firm producing stuff at the cheapest cost price in the quantities desired.

[Kuciwalker]

Oh yeah, at the cheapest cost too. Forgot that bit.

Anyway, were we actually arguing about anything?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Oerdin
The third world joined blocks to prevent any discussion of lowering trade barriers out of the mistaken belief that they would somehow benifet from less trade.

It's not necessarily a mistaken belief. All of the countries that have risen from 3rd world status to developed nation status did so by restricting imports while pushing exports. This enabled them to build up enough capital to become industrialized societies, rather than simply exporting resources. In fact, no country has ever industrialized without trade barriers, not even Great Britain.

Taiwan, Singapore, Canada (prior to dominion status), Australia (also prior to dominion status), New Zeland (same), South Africa (same) are a few just off the top of my head. It has been done in the past and it can be done again in the future.

[Az]

South Africa is barely what I would call "Industrialized"

[Barnabas]

I dont know in depth of all the countries you mentioned, but Taiwan, Singapore and South Africa did what Che mentioned.

And I wouldnt call South Africa an industrialized country, I think most of their exports are gold, diamonds + other minerals, and their stats arent better than those of many latin american countries.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Az
South Africa is barely what I would call "Industrialized"

The white part of the country lived as well as any in Europe or the US though the black population was kept in very poor shape.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
I dont know in depth of all the countries you mentioned, but Taiwan, Singapore and South Africa did what Che mentioned.

And I wouldnt call South Africa an industrialized country, I think most of their exports are gold, diamonds + other minerals, and their stats arent better than those of many latin american countries.

To my knowledge Taiwan has had pretty free trade with the US since the 1950's. Hong Kong should also be added to the list as should Macau. South Africa was fairly industrialized until it got hit with a decade of sanctions. That hurt them badly.

[Barnabas]

Thats true for most latin american countries with a 10% spanish/white/criollo elite who ruled the other 90%.

[Barnabas]

From wiki :

When the KMT government fled to Taiwan it brought the entire gold reserve to the island which stabilized prices and reduced hyperinflation. The government instituted many laws and land reforms that it had never effectively enacted on mainland China. The government also implemented a policy of import-substitution, attempting to produce imported goods domestically. Much of this was made possible through US economic aid, subsidizing the higher cost of domestic production.

Today the ROC has a dynamic capitalist, export-driven economy with gradually decreasing state involvement in investment and foreign trade. In keeping with this trend, some large government-owned banks and industrial firms are being privatized.

From wiki

[LordShiva]

It's Singapore raison d'etre, too.

[chequita guevara]

Lord Shiva beat me too it.

Which isn't to say that free trade between industrialized countries is a bad thing, but between non-industrialized and industrialized countries it's a nightmare. None of their business will get off the ground because they'll be crushed with low-cost imports of better quality. While that may be good for consumers in the short run, in the long run it leaves the country improvished, since it's industry which generates the most wealth (unless you've got oil, and most people will agree, oil is a trap).

Now, it's true that for Latin America, import substitution was a disaster. There are a number of factors for that, among which I would include: siesta culture, relatively low urbanization, corruption of military dictatorships (Asian dictatorships were generally non-military--don't know if that makes if difference), lack of decent sources of external revenue (many of the Asian tigers were on the frontlines of the Cold War and got quite a bit of Amerian money), etc.

[chequita guevara]

Oerdin, you might be interested in this blog, How the World Works by Andrew Leonard at Salon. He's a big globalization proponent, but he also doesn't just swallow the Kool-aid. He's posts are very thoughtful and and he covers a lot of ground (he's on vacation right now).

[Flip McWho]

Anyway, were we actually arguing about anything?

Na, I was just kinda bored.

Though there is a commen misconception that communism cares about profit and thats why it sucks (because it is rather useless at generating profit).

New Zeland (same)

Thats New Zealand with an a, not that anybody'll care but yeah.

Ours is a different situation because we had to sell everything off and open our trade after Muldoon ****ed things up and Britain turned their back on us.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
From wiki :

When the KMT government fled to Taiwan it brought the entire gold reserve to the island which stabilized prices and reduced hyperinflation. The government instituted many laws and land reforms that it had never effectively enacted on mainland China. The government also implemented a policy of import-substitution, attempting to produce imported goods domestically. Much of this was made possible through US economic aid, subsidizing the higher cost of domestic production.

Today the ROC has a dynamic capitalist, export-driven economy with gradually decreasing state involvement in investment and foreign trade. In keeping with this trend, some large government-owned banks and industrial firms are being privatized.

From wiki

But Taiwan grew mainly through exports, NOT import substitution. The fact that a country HAD tariffs, or import substitution policies, doesnt demonstrate that they contributed to growth.

Its just a fact, that for political and other reasons, most countries had some non-free market policies.

Most Americans who recover from cancer believe in G-d. Does this demonstrate that belief in G-d cures cancer? Or just that atheism is pretty uncommon in the US? Similarly, the assertion that most LDCs that developed had some economic controls or import substitution, just demonstrates how rare pure free market policies.