MOBIUS: Trolls get the respect they deserve. I'm just less generous than Lonestar and LotM in that respect given the fact they think your trolls deserve some measure of respect.
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I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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I don't understand why israel waited until the far more minor issue of the capure of some of it's soldiers to respond robustly
I suspect it was because Sharon had more urgent things on his plate, including the 2nd intifada and associated terrorism, and the withdrawl from Gaza. Last year it also looked like UNSC res 1559 might be effective in solving the Hezb problem. I think Olmert, weaker than Sharon, felt that he had to act, since otherwise it would be claimed that Hezb was acting in response to Israeli weakness demonstrated by the withdrawl from Lebanon. Olmert knows that any future Israeli unilateral withdrawls can be justified to the people of Israel only on the assertion that such withdrawls do not create terrorist enclaves.
and why israel isn't including a renunciation of such specific terrorist activity by hezbollah in it's demands rather than only making specific reference to the capture of the soldiers and the rockets. Neither of which are terrorist attacks but rather would qualify as ordinary military aggression.
I dont think Israel wants to imply that it accepts that "ordinary military aggression" by Hezb from Leb territory is in any way acceptable. Hezb has proven deft at doing the more overtly terr acts through proxies. The thousands of missiles present a very real threat to the civilian population of Israel."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark
Originally posted by MOBIUS
"The object of the Zionist movement was to create a 'Jewish State' in control of their own affairs. This little fact in itself displaces the local population from controlling its own affairs - and also hints at some sort of institutional discrimination...
Ahad Ha'am's words way back in 1891 ("Truth from Eretz Israel") seem crystal clear in their prophecies..."
Firstly you are undercutting yourself, since Ahad Ha'am was also a Zionist, though he was skeptical about statehood. He wanted a jewish national home, even if it was not to be a state. There was much conflicting discussion among those who wanted a state about the institutional arrangements.
Regarding agriculture, Ahad Haam, brilliant man though he was, was wrong. In fact they found plenty of untilled land that proved tillable, once modern techniques of fertilization, irrigation, swamp drainage, etc were applied.
"Not to mention the creation of organisations such as Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi (AKA the Stern Gang ) who felt sufficiently strongly about having their own state that they would kill those that got in their way - including Arabs, the British and even UN ambassadors trying to sort things out...!"
The Haganah was the defense organization which among other things put down the Irgun and Stern Gang.
The Stern gang was a tiny, marginal group.
The history of the Irgun was complex, and while I would not approve of their methods, and am glad David Ben Gurion and the Haganah disarmed them, their terrorism has been exagerated by various folks.
They deliberately tried to destabilise the region so as to promote the creation of a Jewish state!
"In the final analysis, the creation of the Jewish State of Israel was by definition a violent wresting of land from its rightful occupiers in a racially discriminatory manner by outsiders."
I dont think you really know what "by definition" means.
"Would you sit idly by while strangers from overseas seek to subvert your freedoms by sheer weight of numbers? I doubt it."
The arabs under the Ottoman empire were hardly free, many of the Jews who came were from other parts of the Ottoman empire, many of the arabs were themselve immigrants, and the Jews were by no means strangers to the land.
If the Nez Perce, who fled to Canada from white persecution in the US, were to come back, claiming a right of free return, would we oppose it?
Secondly, I doubt they are a few million Nez Perce! A few thousand - tens of thousands?
Do you seriously expect you can compare millions into a tiny little territory like Israel with some thousands into the huge vastness of whatever part of the US they are from!!?
But yes! Give the US back to the Native Americans - it was stolen from them after all...
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Originally posted by Lonestar
Hezbollah is following the tactic of "fire randomly into a city" rather than specific targets. If they aren't trying to maximise civilian casulties, then they at least care less than the Israelis do if any die.
The hezbollah rockets were pathetically inaccurate sure, but so were the planes the allies used in daylight bombing in ww2. You gotta use the tools you have in war. Hezbollahhaving crappy tools doesn't necessarily make them terrorists.
Now that they are clearly directing the rockets at cities we could make a comparison to ww2 again.Last edited by Geronimo; August 7, 2006, 13:51.
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Originally posted by lord of the mark
No, ive done enough posting of facts on that aspect of Jewish historyhere. Im not wasting my time. There are many histories of the Jews in Islamic lands available. They will reveal a much more complete picture.
But as youve moderated your statement to "the WORST pogroms" I suspect you have a hint of the truth.
What I am talking about are the really big organised 'ethnic cleansing' of Jews that have happened on a regular basis throughout christian europe...
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
MOBIUS: Trolls get the respect they deserve. I'm just less generous than Lonestar and LotM in that respect given the fact they think your trolls deserve some measure of respect.
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Originally posted by Geronimo
They weren't prior to the current crisis. Previously hezbollah launched it's rockets in the vicinity of IDF facilities. Hezbollahs decision to start explicitly 'targetting' cities is simple retaliation in kind. Like the US targeting soviet cities in the cold war in the event that nukes were sent towards US cities.
The hezbollah rockets were pathetically inaccurate sure, but so were the planes the allies used in daylight bombing in ww2. You gotta use the tools you have in war. Hezbollahhaving crappy tools doesn't necessarily make them terrorists.
Now that they are clearly directing the rockets at cities we could make a comparison to ww2 again.
Also, given hezb were born out of the ashes of Israel's indiscriminate siege and bombardment of Beirut in '82 - one could argue they are only playing Israel at it's own game... (Note: That is not justification for their actions, merely a condemnation of the actions of both parties!)
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So again holding a grudge over lands previously ceded puts Hezb. and Syria squarely in the peer groups of...... Nazi Germany circa 1939. Kudos."Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
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Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
So again holding a grudge over lands previously ceded puts Hezb. and Syria squarely in the peer groups of...... Nazi Germany circa 1939. Kudos.
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Originally posted by BeBro
So what are we discussing now here, ME, Kosovo or WWII?
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Originally posted by Geronimo
a peer group that would include the founders of zionism as well technically. But I would suggest that 'holding a grudge over lands previously ceded' is a relatively useless trait as a means to define any sort of useful 'peer group'."Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
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Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
So again holding a grudge over lands previously ceded puts Hezb. and Syria squarely in the peer groups of...... Nazi Germany circa 1939. Kudos.
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Actually, probably the biggest irony of ironies in this whole sorry saga - is the fact that almost since the dawn of christianity Jews have found welcome sanctuary in a tolerant muslim Palestine AWAY from the murderous persecution of christian lands!
When You speak about arguably better conditions for Jews under muslim rule You have to remember that the biggest, most suspected and most persecuted minority under their rule were christians... And Jews eagerly participated in these persecutions if they could.
The arabs under the Ottoman empire were hardly free, many of the Jews who came were from other parts of the Ottoman empire, many of the arabs were themselve immigrants, and the Jews were by no means strangers to the land.
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Ironically the French occupied Alsace Lorraine does that mean the Germans were justified in WW2?
About time this thread got Godwinized."I realise I hold the key to freedom,
I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
Middle East!
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