The Middle East Continues...

[DinoDoc]

MOBIUS: Trolls get the respect they deserve. I'm just less generous than Lonestar and LotM in that respect given the fact they think your trolls deserve some measure of respect.

[lord of the mark]

I don't understand why israel waited until the far more minor issue of the capure of some of it's soldiers to respond robustly

I suspect it was because Sharon had more urgent things on his plate, including the 2nd intifada and associated terrorism, and the withdrawl from Gaza. Last year it also looked like UNSC res 1559 might be effective in solving the Hezb problem. I think Olmert, weaker than Sharon, felt that he had to act, since otherwise it would be claimed that Hezb was acting in response to Israeli weakness demonstrated by the withdrawl from Lebanon. Olmert knows that any future Israeli unilateral withdrawls can be justified to the people of Israel only on the assertion that such withdrawls do not create terrorist enclaves.

and why israel isn't including a renunciation of such specific terrorist activity by hezbollah in it's demands rather than only making specific reference to the capture of the soldiers and the rockets. Neither of which are terrorist attacks but rather would qualify as ordinary military aggression.

I dont think Israel wants to imply that it accepts that "ordinary military aggression" by Hezb from Leb territory is in any way acceptable. Hezb has proven deft at doing the more overtly terr acts through proxies. The thousands of missiles present a very real threat to the civilian population of Israel.

[MOBIUS]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

Originally posted by MOBIUS


"The object of the Zionist movement was to create a 'Jewish State' in control of their own affairs. This little fact in itself displaces the local population from controlling its own affairs - and also hints at some sort of institutional discrimination...

Ahad Ha'am's words way back in 1891 ("Truth from Eretz Israel") seem crystal clear in their prophecies..."

Firstly you are undercutting yourself, since Ahad Ha'am was also a Zionist, though he was skeptical about statehood. He wanted a jewish national home, even if it was not to be a state. There was much conflicting discussion among those who wanted a state about the institutional arrangements.

The point is he foresaw the problems prevalent in trying to create a home/state in an already populated land. Also there were enough of the 'statists' to aggravate the arab population into perhaps believing that was the ultimate goal of the Jewish immigrants...

Regarding agriculture, Ahad Haam, brilliant man though he was, was wrong. In fact they found plenty of untilled land that proved tillable, once modern techniques of fertilization, irrigation, swamp drainage, etc were applied.

Well I was using the text more as a metaphor in rightly predicting the fact that the arab population would not be happy. But yes, very admirable as long as the land was fairly bought from arabs.

"Not to mention the creation of organisations such as Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi (AKA the Stern Gang ) who felt sufficiently strongly about having their own state that they would kill those that got in their way - including Arabs, the British and even UN ambassadors trying to sort things out...!"

The Haganah was the defense organization which among other things put down the Irgun and Stern Gang.

The Stern gang was a tiny, marginal group.

The history of the Irgun was complex, and while I would not approve of their methods, and am glad David Ben Gurion and the Haganah disarmed them, their terrorism has been exagerated by various folks.

Killing arabs, British and civilians exaggerated!?

They deliberately tried to destabilise the region so as to promote the creation of a Jewish state!

"In the final analysis, the creation of the Jewish State of Israel was by definition a violent wresting of land from its rightful occupiers in a racially discriminatory manner by outsiders."

I dont think you really know what "by definition" means.

Violent terrorist acts against the British mandate government, followed by the successful creation of a Jewish state (note: not democratic!) whereby they locals were marginalised along racial lines...

"Would you sit idly by while strangers from overseas seek to subvert your freedoms by sheer weight of numbers? I doubt it."

The arabs under the Ottoman empire were hardly free, many of the Jews who came were from other parts of the Ottoman empire, many of the arabs were themselve immigrants, and the Jews were by no means strangers to the land.

Indeed. But after WWII at least they could hope to expect self-determination in the form of a democratic state of the population of the land. Not being turned into a Jewish enclave, where as non Jews they would become second class citizens. And no, the Jews were not strangers to the land - as they were tolerated by the arabs (unlike the christians of Europe!).

If the Nez Perce, who fled to Canada from white persecution in the US, were to come back, claiming a right of free return, would we oppose it?

Firstly, the Nez Perce would be doing it within a few generations, not after thousands of years!

Secondly, I doubt they are a few million Nez Perce! A few thousand - tens of thousands?

Do you seriously expect you can compare millions into a tiny little territory like Israel with some thousands into the huge vastness of whatever part of the US they are from!!?

But yes! Give the US back to the Native Americans - it was stolen from them after all...

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Hezbollah is following the tactic of "fire randomly into a city" rather than specific targets. If they aren't trying to maximise civilian casulties, then they at least care less than the Israelis do if any die.

They weren't prior to the current crisis. Previously hezbollah launched it's rockets in the vicinity of IDF facilities. Hezbollahs decision to start explicitly 'targeting' cities is simple retaliation in kind. Like the US targeting soviet cities in the cold war in the event that nukes were sent towards US cities.

The hezbollah rockets were pathetically inaccurate sure, but so were the planes the allies used in daylight bombing in ww2. You gotta use the tools you have in war. Hezbollahhaving crappy tools doesn't necessarily make them terrorists.

Now that they are clearly directing the rockets at cities we could make a comparison to ww2 again.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
No, ive done enough posting of facts on that aspect of Jewish historyhere. Im not wasting my time. There are many histories of the Jews in Islamic lands available. They will reveal a much more complete picture.

Sounds like a cop out to me, surely it would be easy for you to point me in the direction of a few of the more grisly examples?

But as youve moderated your statement to "the WORST pogroms" I suspect you have a hint of the truth.

Hey stuff happens. I don't doubt the have been a few in the Middle East, the odd isolated incident here or there...

What I am talking about are the really big organised 'ethnic cleansing' of Jews that have happened on a regular basis throughout christian europe...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
MOBIUS: Trolls get the respect they deserve. I'm just less generous than Lonestar and LotM in that respect given the fact they think your trolls deserve some measure of respect.

Actually it really just points to the fact that you have nothing constructive to say. Rather a hypocritical stance considering the fact that you are accusing me of trolling...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Geronimo


They weren't prior to the current crisis. Previously hezbollah launched it's rockets in the vicinity of IDF facilities. Hezbollahs decision to start explicitly 'targetting' cities is simple retaliation in kind. Like the US targeting soviet cities in the cold war in the event that nukes were sent towards US cities.

The hezbollah rockets were pathetically inaccurate sure, but so were the planes the allies used in daylight bombing in ww2. You gotta use the tools you have in war. Hezbollahhaving crappy tools doesn't necessarily make them terrorists.

Now that they are clearly directing the rockets at cities we could make a comparison to ww2 again.

Indeed. Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki...

Also, given hezb were born out of the ashes of Israel's indiscriminate siege and bombardment of Beirut in '82 - one could argue they are only playing Israel at it's own game... (Note: That is not justification for their actions, merely a condemnation of the actions of both parties!)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

So again holding a grudge over lands previously ceded puts Hezb. and Syria squarely in the peer groups of...... Nazi Germany circa 1939. Kudos.

[Geronimo]

if all of the s were removed from Mobius's posts in this thread I could almost begin to believe he isn't really trolling this time.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
So again holding a grudge over lands previously ceded puts Hezb. and Syria squarely in the peer groups of...... Nazi Germany circa 1939. Kudos.

a peer group that would include the founders of zionism as well technically. But I would suggest that 'holding a grudge over lands previously ceded' is a relatively useless trait as a means to define any sort of useful 'peer group'.

[BeBMan]

So what are we discussing now here, ME, Kosovo or WWII?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by BeBro
So what are we discussing now here, ME, Kosovo or WWII?

it needs to tie in with lebanon/israeli crisis. Obviously referencing other conflicts can help understand the roots of this crisis as well as establish standards of conducts.

[BeBMan]

Sure, I just think most of the comparisons are....hm....rather inadequate to the current situation. But of course that was never a reason to stop making them here at poly......

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Geronimo


a peer group that would include the founders of zionism as well technically. But I would suggest that 'holding a grudge over lands previously ceded' is a relatively useless trait as a means to define any sort of useful 'peer group'.

Why were they warring against ancient Rome circa 70 AD?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
So again holding a grudge over lands previously ceded puts Hezb. and Syria squarely in the peer groups of...... Nazi Germany circa 1939. Kudos.

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Actually, probably the biggest irony of ironies in this whole sorry saga - is the fact that almost since the dawn of christianity Jews have found welcome sanctuary in a tolerant muslim Palestine AWAY from the murderous persecution of christian lands!

There were no muslims in Palestine for the first +600 years of christian history... and even later there were a majority there, which might have ended somewhere around mamluk rule.

When You speak about arguably better conditions for Jews under muslim rule You have to remember that the biggest, most suspected and most persecuted minority under their rule were christians... And Jews eagerly participated in these persecutions if they could.

The arabs under the Ottoman empire were hardly free, many of the Jews who came were from other parts of the Ottoman empire, many of the arabs were themselve immigrants, and the Jews were by no means strangers to the land.

I strongly disagree with zionist propaganda that claims that arabs were themselves immigrants to Palestine. It's simply a lie made up to cover the fact that while Arabs were the indigenous population, Jews were in definite most immigrants.

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Ironically the French occupied Alsace Lorraine does that mean the Germans were justified in WW2?

About time this thread got Godwinized.

Germany acknowledged the bellonging of Alsace and Lorraine to France. These two provinces used to belong to France for quite a time earlier, as well.