Were there only wusses in WWII besides Russians, Germans and Americans?

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by Asher

So what? I'm not blaming FDR.

I'm blaming the representatives that America elected that decided to be passive *****es while the Germans slaughtered millions in Europe.

Throw all the excuses you want, but I really don't care how you want to rationalize it. The US was selfish in that it recognized what was going on as being bad/evil, but didn't get their hands dirty until their own self-interests were attacked.

That's just the thing - possibly many representatives didn't recognize that there was evil going on. So why jump in on a war in Europe that's maybe not our business?

Obviously I wasn't there, hindsight is 20/20, and we did need to get involved. But I think it's an oversimplification to jump on the US for not getting involved sooner. Unless there was some treaty obligation that we weren't living up to?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Didn't "Market Garden" liberate most of Netherland? At least the area south of the most strategic part, the bridge over Rhein. In what way was Canada involved in that?

Market Garden was largely a failure. The bridge you mention was never taken during Operation Market Garden, the Canadians subsequently took it.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar/netherlands/n_intro&CFID=5493958&CFTOKEN=73313592

Fighting on the left flank of the Allied forces, the First Canadian Army pushed rapidly eastward through France towards Belgium. September began with the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division being welcomed to Dieppe. The 2nd Canadian Corps left a number of units to guard the heavily defended ports and pushed into Belgium, reaching Ostend, Bruges and Ghent by the middle of the month. By October 1, the port cities of Boulogne, Cap Gris Nez, Calais, and Dunkirk were all under Allied control. The 2nd Canadian Corps had also captured the launching sites of German rockets and put an end to their attacks on southern England.

Meanwhile, the Second British Army had pushed forward into the southern Netherlands. On September 17, three British and American airborne divisions, as well as a brigade of Polish parachute troops, attempted to land behind enemy lines at Nijmegen, Eindhoven and Arnhem. Code-named Operation Market Garden, the mission's objective was to seize a bridge over the Rhine River at Arnhem. The operation failed, with 1,400 of a total force of 35,000 killed and more than 6,000 taken prisoner. Any hope for a speedy end to the war appeared to be dashed.

Capturing a major port now became a top priority as establishing adequate supply lines for the winter now became of paramount importance. The Second British Army had seized the port of Antwerp with its installations virtually intact. As Europe's second-largest port, Antwerp and its 45 kilometres of docks was an ideal landing ground for supplies for the continuing war effort. In fact, the opening of the port of Antwerp was essential, since at this point the main supply lines still ran back to Normandy.

....

The task of liberating the Scheldt was entrusted to the First Canadian Army, under the command of Lieutenant-General Guy Simonds (in place of General Crerar, who had returned to England because of severe illness).

The unique geography of the area made the First Canadian Army's challenge even more daunting. North of the estuary lay South Beveland. Beyond South Beveland lay the island of Walcheren, which had been fortified into a powerful German stronghold. The south bank of the estuary was flat floodlands enclosed by ****s, known as "polder country". It was below sea level and well-suited to defence.

...

An amphibious attack was made across the West Scheldt by the 52nd (Lowland) Division to get in behind the German's Beveland Canal defensive positions. Thus this formidable defence was outflanked and the 6th Canadian Infantry Brigade began a frontal attack in assault boats. The engineers were able to bridge the canal on the main road. With the canal line gone, the German defence crumbled and South Beveland was cleared.

This left the island of Walcheren as the last obstacle to securing the port of Antwerp for Allied use. However, the Germans had fortified their position on the island and the only land approach was the long narrow causeway from South Beveland. To make matters worse, the flats that surrounded this causeway were too saturated with sea water for movement on foot but with too little water for an assault in storm boats.

...

Thus, with the approaches to Antwerp free and the country up to the Maas River cleared, the Battle of the Scheldt was over and the crucial supply line, essential to fuel the allied advance to liberate Europe, was secured. The channel was cleared of mines and, on November 28, the first convoy entered the port of Antwerp, led by the Canadian-built freighter Fort Cataraqui.

The Battle of the Scheldt exacted a heavy toll on the First Canadian Army. Between October 1 and November 8, 1944, the First Canadian Army suffered 12,873 casualties (killed, wounded, or missing), 6,367 of whom were Canadians.

And it goes on. Very good website. Lots of pretty pictures for the Americans to look at.

[Asher]

From Wikipedia on the bridge at Arnhem that wasn't taken during Operation Market Garden:

n World War II, during Operation Market Garden (September 1944), the British 1st Airborne Division and the Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade were given the task of securing the bridge at Arnhem. The units were parachuted and glider-landed into the area on September 17 and later. The bulk of the force was dropped rather far from the bridge and never met their objective. A small force of British 1st Airborne managed to make their way as far as the bridge but was unable to secure both sides. The Allied troops encountered stiff resistance from the German 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions, which had been stationed in and around the city. The British force at the bridge eventually surrendered on September 21 and a full withdrawal of the remaining forces was made on September 26. These events were dramatised in the movie A Bridge Too Far. As a tribute, the bridge has been renamed 'John Frost-bridge' after the commander of the paratroopers. The official commemoration is September 16. (Actually, the movie was shot in Deventer, where a similar bridge over the IJssel was available, as the area around Arnhem bridge had changed too much to represent WWII era Arnhem).

A second battle of Arnhem took place in April 1945 when the city was liberated by I Canadian Corps of the First Canadian Army.

[Lord Avalon]

From the bottom of the Wikipedia article under Reflections:

For his part, Montgomery called Market Garden "90% successful" and said:

In my prejudiced view, if the operation had been properly backed from its inception, and given the aircraft, ground forces, and administrative resources necessary for the job, it would have succeeded in spite of my mistakes, or the adverse weather, or the presence of the 2nd SS Panzer Corps in the Arnhem area. I remain Market Garden's unrepentant advocate.

Dutch Prince Bernhard responded directly to this to Cornelius Ryan:

My country can never again afford the luxury of another Montgomery success.

Indeed.

[Drake Tungsten]

Mmm, yes, advancing across all that empty ocean. So much more difficult than dense jungle terrain in monsoonal weather.

Yes, advancing island by island across that "empty" ocean was surely much easier than attacking Burma from adjacent India, a major British stronghold...

Of course, the British had actually been fighting the Axis powers for a few years while the U.S. was still trading with Nazi Germany.

And they would've kept fighting the Nazis for many more years if we hadn't been forced into the war. Mounting a spirited defense is all well and good, but you do need to go back on the offensive at some point, something the British were incapable of against both the Germans and the Japanese.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Mmm, yes, advancing across all that empty ocean. So much more difficult than dense jungle terrain in monsoonal weather.

Yes, advancing island by island across that "empty" ocean was surely much easier than attacking Burma from adjacent India, a major British stronghold...

Try to find some american vets from guadalcanal and ask what they think about the brits in burma.

[Drake Tungsten]

Try to find some american vets from guadalcanal and ask what they think about the brits in burma.

It'd be easier for me to find some old Japanese soldiers and ask them what country they think beat them in WWII. I'm guessing Britain isn't going to be high on their list...

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Try to find some american vets from guadalcanal and ask what they think about the brits in burma.

It'd be easier for me to find some old Japanese soldiers and ask them what country they think beat them in WWII. I'm guessing Britain isn't going to be high on their list...

It seems that you are aiming for a carrer as a rocket scientist - congratulations.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Asher

Market Garden was largely a failure. The bridge you mention was never taken during Operation Market Garden, the Canadians subsequently took it.

[

I am well aware of that. But at least half of the Netherlands is south of that bridge.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Mmm, yes, advancing across all that empty ocean. So much more difficult than dense jungle terrain in monsoonal weather.

That's really a commentary on who fought the war smarter, isn't it?

Of course, the British had actually been fighting the Axis powers for a few years while the U.S. was still trading with Nazi Germany.

Of course. What with the undeclared Naval war and all...tell that to the Reuben James

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Lonestar

That's really a commentary on who fought the war smarter, isn't it?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by BlackCat

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Lonestar

Cute little doggy - don't you want to catch this stick I throw out into the middle of the highway ?

[Lonestar]

Ironically, It's a Japanese doggy.

[BlackCat]

who cares - any dog run over by a car is a good start.