Middle East Continued Again...

[notyoueither]

Actually, part of occupied Syria.

Carry on.

[Kuciwalker]

I stand corrected.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
If the only way to prevent Israel from launching its nukes if it falls is to conduct an all-out nuclear first strike, and we assume that Israel will fall, then the best-case scenario is that Israel is hit by an all-out nuclear first strike. Duh.

The end of Israel need not be so dramatic.

BAM, hello.

Sorry, but the US public has never actually been particularly moved by any other genocide. I fail to see why they would start in the future.

Because genocide is wrong, perhaps?

Since when is the end of a state "genocide"? Israel as a state can end without the Jewish people being wiped out. There is no Kurdistan, but there are Kurds.

Because Israel is big and powerful and they're small and weak?

And this, as so many other things, is subject to change.

Because they'd be a hell of a lot better off if they stopped shooting at Israel?

The vast majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories did not shoot at Israelis for 20 years of occupation. That got them nowhere. It was only after their open revolt that they got anything. Had there been no Intifadah, Israel would never have accepted the notion of a Palestinian state. It would have been great if this had not been the case, but sadly, it was. And that has a way of teaching bad lessons.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I stand corrected.

You're not really wrong though.

The Shebba Farms are sort of like if Doenitz and the Swiss signed a deal where Bavaria is now a part of Switzerland in May '45 and then expected the Yanks to leave the area.

[Qilue]

My point is this using the options I stated before -

Israel's Options
Brute Force - not working
Submission
Extinction - unacceptable
Diplomacy - failed

Palestinian options
Brute Force - not working
Submission
Extinction - unacceptable
Diplomacy - failed

Unless someone can think of another solution, peace may only come when Israelies and Palestinians stop killing each other. In a way, Iraq could be a kind of dry run for convincing warring ethnic groups to live together in peace as a single nation.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Are you actually suggesting that Egypt will renounce the peace treaty? Just to get your position on record.

If the pressure on Mubarak were instense enough, for his own political survival he would. It isn't there yet, and I doubt that this crisis will continue for long enough for that to happen. Of course, if Israel and Syria were to actually go directly into open warfare, that might change.

For the record, the Egyptian government will do what it thinks is needed for itself to survive. If that means dropping the peace treaty with Israel, then so be it. That is the thing about autocracies, what matters to them is internal political survival.

[Qilue]

clicked wrong link.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap


The end of Israel need not be so dramatic.

You're suggesting that it will be conquered/destroyed by nearby Muslim states. If Israel were about to be destroyed, they would launch nukes across the Mideast, unless they were unable to. The only way they'd be unable to is if they were hit by a nuclear first strike that destroyed most or all of their nuclear capability.

Since when is the end of a state "genocide"? Israel as a state can end without the Jewish people being wiped out. There is no Kurdistan, but there are Kurds.

Memories of the first holocaust will not soon or probably ever fade. Think of the hypocrisy of the Holocaust Museum in DC if we let it happen again.

And no, the Jews won't be wiped out - they'll survive in pretty much the United States alone. Hezbollah and Hamas and Iran call for the destruction of Israel and have views of the Jews about on par with the Nazis.

And this, as so many other things, is subject to change.

You didn't address my other two reasons. Try those out. And it's not a great choice from the Palestinian or Lebanese perspective to sit and live in misery while waiting for some protential deliverance from countries that might be able to give it in the future, or might not. Try that for "why not?"

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


You're suggesting that it will be conquered/destroyed by nearby Muslim states. If Israel were about to be destroyed, they would launch nukes across the Mideast, unless they were unable to. The only way they'd be unable to is if they were hit by a nuclear first strike that destroyed most or all of their nuclear capability.

What my Social Sciences degree taught me is to realize that circumstances change. The simplest way for Israel to disappear is for there to be a non-Jewish majority there. It would not take a single nuclear bomb to do that.

Memories of the first holocaust will not soon or probably ever fade. Think of the hypocrisy of the Holocaust Museum in DC if we let it happen again.

Memories ALWAYS fade. Certainly for the Jews it will become part of their history, with all the other suffering, but you think the 99.95% of other humans have any real reason to continue thinking about it forever? What did the "memory of the holocaust" do when there was Genocide in cambodia or rwanda?

And no, the Jews won't be wiped out - they'll survive in pretty much the United States alone. Hezbollah and Hamas and Iran call for the destruction of Israel and have views of the Jews about on par with the Nazis.

Factually incorrect. Islamist ideology is certainly different from Nazi racial idelogy. Certainly Jews would not like living in the ideal Islamist world, as would anyone who is not an islamist. At the same time, what they envision for the Jews and Christians is being seocnd class citizens. Iran calls for the destruction of Israel. Has Iran wipped out is Jewish community? Are they building camps? Gas chambers? Last time I looked, they aren't.

Hyperbole leads nowhere.

You didn't address my other two reasons. Try those out. And it's not a great choice from the Palestinian or Lebanese perspective to sit and live in misery while waiting for some protential deliverance from countries that might be able to give it in the future, or might not. Try that for "why not?"

Well, the Jews had to wait 2000 years to get it back, didn;t they?

And in fact, I did address each of your points. Look above.

[Kuciwalker]

What my Social Sciences degree taught me is to realize that circumstances change. The simplest way for Israel to disappear is for there to be a non-Jewish majority there. It would not take a single nuclear bomb to do that.

1) That probaby won't satisfy Hezbollah.

2) What does this "Israel might disappear in the distant future" discussion have to do with what Israel should do here and now?

3) If Israel continues with its "brute force" strategy, there isn't going to be a non-Jewish majority.

Memories ALWAYS fade. Certainly for the Jews it will become part of their history, with all the other suffering, but you think the 99.95% of other humans have any real reason to continue thinking about it forever? What did the "memory of the holocaust" do when there was Genocide in cambodia or rwanda?

This is getting ridiculously off-topic, so I'll just end with: I never was adressing the distant future. I said that no sane person, now, wants to see an Arab armies marching through Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, because that would mean a [rather one-sided] nuclear war in the Middle East and that would ****ing suck.

Factually incorrect. Islamist ideology is certainly different from Nazi racial idelogy.

Okay, what the fuck are we talking about, now? I'm saying that the so-called man on the street in those countries - and most other Muslim countries, as well - pretty much believes that Jews are inhuman scum.

And in fact, I did address each of your points. Look above.

You never answered "because wiping out 7 million people is wrong" and "because they'd be a hell of a lot better off if the shooting stopped." Remember, in response to "Why shouldn't they [call for the destruction of Israel]?"

[Kuciwalker]

I think "because it's wrong" is a great answer to the question of "why shouldn't they want to kill millions of people?"

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I think "because it's wrong" is a great answer to the question of "why shouldn't they want to kill millions of people?"

Except they don't want to kill millions of people, and the fact you keep repeating this self-serving lie is great evidence why neither side is heading towards peace.

You pointed towards Iran as an example of how the Islamist want to commit genocide against the Jews. Iran's clerical regime took power 25 years ago. Can you please point me to the concentration camps in Iran. The gas chambers in Iran?

[PLATO]

...the Jews in Iran!


oh wait.......

[SlowwHand]

They state plainly they want Israel exterminated. Arguing they don't want it is pointless, and dumb.

[GePap]

Originally posted by PLATO
...the Jews in Iran!


oh wait.......

Yeah, these ones:

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second argest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as the the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community's isolation from world Jewry.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

As stated before, the Islamist place the Jews as second class citizens, befitting their medieval views.

BUt I am waiting for the evidence of genocide.