Middle East Continued Again...

[Arrian]

Don't worry, Cort, it's just your PREMISE that is simple-minded. You're hunky dory.

Nod 'n smile. Nod 'n smile.

-Arrian

[SlowwHand]

Hunky dory?? Sound like my grandmother.

[Arrian]

Isn't your grandma 6'3", 220? [/Dazed and Confused]

It's before noon on a Monday, you gotta cut me some slack.

-Arrian

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Arrian
In the real world, yes. In the context of this discussion, however, what you think is actually more important (heh, the only time that will be true!). We aren't debating with any members of Hezbollah here.

If you agree that Hezbollah is wrong in firing rockets at Israeli civilians... if you agree that Israel has a right to exist and a right to self-defense... IF,

I agree with both those points and have already said so...

Then you must concede that it's not as simple as the "brutish Israeli dogs" slaughtering innocent Lebanese (just as it's not pure, innocent Israelis bravely fighting teh evil terrorists).

However...

My point as I have said on numerous occasions is that I don't accept the manner of their retaliation, in that they appear to have killed a totally disproportion number of civilians, hit hospitals, ambulances, bridges, roads, airports, ports!

It is the nature of their retaliation I have a problem with, and if you cannot understand that simple distinction then you are a fool!

I have even given my ideas towards a solution - everything you could hope for to crystalise my position on this situation. It amazes me how clouded in your judgement some of you people appear to be...

edit: and Sloww has a point - vis-a-vis the real world situation, what Israel believes is also clearly important. If Israel believes it can coexist peacefully with Hezbollah, they've no reason to bomb the crap out of Lebanon.

Indeed, Israel seems to believe it can attack the assets and civilian population of nation that is too weak to adequately police its own territory, and also seems to have a complete disregard for civilian lives...

And they don't need to bomb the crap out of Lebanon.

[SlowwHand]

They advised the civilian population to evacuate. What do you want? An offer of housing in Israel for refugees?
It was Lebanon that started it. Be Israel that ends it.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Too busy calling people simplistic morons and whining to get around to an actual opinion on what should happen.
Real big on what shouldn't happen, a little lacking on what should happen.

What else can I do if as previously mentioned above I have expounded my opinion till I'm blue in the face in triplicate!

It's all there in the plain light of day - if you all then choose to ignore that and attack me for opinions you claim I have, how else am I supposed to view you all?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
They advised the civilian population to evacuate. What do you want? An offer of housing in Israel for refugees?
It was Lebanon that started it. Be Israel that ends it.

Yeah, after they blew up all the bridges and started destroying everything that moved...

Quite a long time after actually...

AND IT WASN'T LEBANON THAT STARTED IT!!!

It was Hezbollah.

Ming, you should ban Sloww for trying to incite me to call him a stupid ignorant moron who still knows **** all about a conflict that has been going on for two weeks!!!

[Arrian]

It is the nature of their retaliation I have a problem with, and if you cannot understand that simple distinction then you are a fool!

Perhaps I simply missed your brilliant plan which would provide for an appropriate response to Hezbollah's kidnap/capture escapade whilst ensuring that nobody who isn't either a uniformed soldier or a confirmed member of Hezbollah dies?

Ah, here it is:

Here's a radical idea: enter into negotiation with hezb/syria/iran about disbanding hezb with a threat of draconian international sanctions on syria/iran if this does not come about. At the same time build up Leb's infrastructure and military on the proviso that it is to be used to enforce the demilitarisation of hezb after a certain timeframe. Also get the UN to actually peace keep, as opposed to being spectators...

That way you nurture a fledgling democracy (that's what we're supposed to be doing, right?) who will vote to keep the country on the side of the west and police themselves against hezb/syria etc. Thus crowbarring an important 'stepping stone' country out from under the disruptive influences of the region...

Of course, none of this will ever happen as the US is too chicken to slap sanctions on Iran because of oil and Israel doesn't want a strong democratic neighbour on its border to make it look bad and would far prefer jumping in and blasting the place to kingdom come as it does on a regular basis. Also the UN are toothless pussies whose 'peacekeeping' forces are in name only and are only there for target practice for when one side or the other gets bored and kills a few of them for no retaliation...

You think that Iran/Syria/Hez would go along if faced with UN sanctions? Personally, I wouldn't mind trying it, but I rather doubt that it would work.

Building up Leb's infrastructure and military... meanwhile a recalcitrant Hezbollah is still there. Result is most likely civil war, with the non-Shia muslim government forces (backed by the int'l community) fighting Hez, with a ****load of civilian casualties.

Also get the UN to actually peace keep, as opposed to being spectators...

As you said yourself:

Also the UN are toothless pussies whose 'peacekeeping' forces are in name only and are only there for target practice for when one side or the other gets bored and kills a few of them for no retaliation

To sum up, your solution sounds nice and all, and I would love to see that work. I don't really think it would, though, and moreover even your plan would most likely result in the deaths of innocents.

-Arrian

[MOBIUS]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Arrian
Perhaps I simply missed your brilliant plan which would provide for an appropriate response to Hezbollah's kidnap/capture escapade whilst ensuring that nobody who isn't either a uniformed soldier or a confirmed member of Hezbollah dies?

Ah, here it is:

You think that Iran/Syria/Hez would go along if faced with UN sanctions? Personally, I wouldn't mind trying it, but I rather doubt that it would work.

It is a question of getting the international community behind a lasting solution, not just a counter-productive knee-jerk reaction. Hezbollah only exist because the Israelis tried the same thing with the PLO in 1982.

If they don't then the face the sanctions, plain and simple. They are in the wrong having hezb still armed, a concerted diplomatic effort will show that.

Building up Leb's infrastructure and military... meanwhile a recalcitrant Hezbollah is still there. Result is most likely civil war, with the non-Shia muslim government forces (backed by the int'l community) fighting Hez, with a ****load of civilian casualties.

At least not caused by Israel. Personally I'm not as pessimistic as you. I doubt many Lebanese (on either side) have much stomach for a renewed civil war - unless the country starts getting destroyed already (such as Israeli bombing) and they feel they have nothing else to lose.

I think if handled correctly over a proper timeframe they might be encouraged to pack up and go home. Any hardliners at this point will become isolated and easier to deal with if need be.

To sum up, your solution sounds nice and all, and I would love to see that work. I don't really think it would, though, and moreover even your plan would most likely result in the deaths of innocents.

I don't think people on either side would want it to work to be honest... But what Israel is don't is destined to fail, so the innocent people dying now will be for nothing.

As for right now. Israel has to refrain from anything less than cast-iron targets - 100+ dead children isn't winning it any friends...

Surely as one of the world's most sophisticated armies, they have the power to do that...

[Arrian]

You'd think so, but we miss in Iraq too. Now you can make snide remarks about triggerhappiness and such, but I think the reality is that fancy technology only does so much. When wielding the sort of firepower that modern 1st world armies do, you're going to be the proverbial bull in a china shop. Even if you try to be careful.

Anyway, "getting the international community behind a lasting solution" is no small thing. In fact, it's huge. And yes, I'm pessimistic. For good reason, I feel. If the "international community" could really unite around a plan that is fair to all, GREAT. Cue the sanctions, peacekeepers, aid, etc. But to my eyes & ears, the international community is far from united.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
If they don't then the face the sanctions, plain and simple. They are in the wrong having hezb still armed, a concerted diplomatic effort will show that.

I don't think they have much to fear from the threat of sanctions seeing as how the international community (TM) can't even get its act together to sanction eaither the DPRK or Iran.

[Arrian]

And how long would it be before people began whining about teh evil sanctions that only hurt innocent Syrians/Iranians?

Since when do sanctions work, by the way?

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Arrian: If sanctions don't work, where are the WMD in Iraq then?

[Arrian]

Was that the result of sanctions, or the asskicking Saddam received in Gulf War I coupled with the threat of a second asskicking?

And even if it was the sanctions, remember how the sanctions were responsible for the deaths of countless Iraqis?

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

if Hezb wanted to minimize Lebanese civilian casualties, they'd stop playing the human shields game.

Israel doesn't want to kill civilians, it wants to crush Hezb, who are trying to maximise civilian deaths on both the Israeli side and their own side.

They want Israelis dying because they are firing rockets at them, and they want their own to die to win support from outside.

Israel is getting more and more condemnation in the British media for its actions, so the Hezb strategy is working. The thing is, it's Hezb who want all these Lebanese civilian deaths, not Israel, who only want to kill Hezbollah. They are faced with the choice of climbing down and facing defeat, weakness, and further attacks, or going ahead at a terrible cost to the civilians and infrastructure.