Bush vetoes Stem Cell Research

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I read through your article, and the fellow made it very clear. The only rats which showed any progress at all are the ones that received adult cells. Embryonic cells alone did nothing.

Where have I distorted anything? I cited and quoted your own source!

You're DELIBERATELY trying to distort the article's message. Here's a seperate article about the study which clarifies a key detail. A decently designed study would NEVER work the way you're claiming this one did, you always leave various control groups to account for the possibility that the other variables are the primary cause of the results.

Animals treated without even one component of the “cocktail” experienced no such recovery. Novel ways of tracing the neurons back to their source assured the scientists that they indeed had come from the injected stem cells, not from lingering host neurons.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/06/060626125813.htm

This article makes it explicitly clear that rats with just adult stem cells and without embryonic stem cells WERE TESTED, and the results were not even close to what they were with embryonic stem cells involved. While you apparently need all elements of the treatment to get the regrowth to work, the embryonic stem cells are a key component to get the treatment to work and you can't simply leave them out.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Arrian
I wouldn't be surprised if the religious right wanted to ban IVF, Odin.

-Arrian

The problem is alot of the are "feel good" pro-lifers who don't actually have the guts to condemn IVF, but don't have any concerns about trying to stop embryonic stem cell research anyway they can.

[Blaupanzer]

It would appear Mordoch is preaching to the choir. Ben appears to be the only one supporting the President's decision. This represents a setback for US research, and that's a shame. The number of embryos "saved" by this veto is zero. Snowflake procedures and experimental use of the embryos simultaneously is not only possible but is going on right now.

Incidentally, where does the 400,000 number used by Ben come from?

[ajbera]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060720/wl_nm/science_eu_stemcells_dc

Germany seeks EU ban on stem-cell research funding
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Germany pressed its EU partners to ban European funding for embryonic stem-cell research, a day after President George W. Bush vetoed a bill that would have expanded such work in the United States.

"The European Union science programme should not be used to give financial incentives to kill embryos," German Research Minister Annette Schavan wrote in a letter seen by Reuters on Thursday before a meeting on EU science funding on Monday.

"The current proposal from the European Commission and the European Parliament does not rule this out."

Most EU governments, backed by the bloc's executive and lawmakers, want to maintain the possibility of public funding for potentially life-saving research projects.

Supporters of embryonic stem-cell research say it uses only excess cells discarded by fertility clinics and that the work can help find cures for chronic diseases such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

Critics, including the main Christian churches, say it is unethical because it involves destroying human life.

European countries have widely differing national laws, with Britain actively encouraging stem-cell research. Germany, with an aversion to genetic experimentation rooted partly in the legacy of Nazi abuses, effectively bans it.

Stem-cell research would receive only a small fraction of the EU science budget of some 51 billion euros ($64.3 billion) in 2007-13 but Germany is hoping to rally a coalition of mainly Roman Catholic countries to block it.

A draft ministerial decision proposed by Finland, which holds the 25-nation bloc's rotating presidency, would rule out EU funding for research on human reproductive cloning, genetic modification of human beings and artificial creation of human embryos solely for research purposes.

But it would allow funding for research on human stem cells.

As well as Germany, other countries that have put down a reservation on the issue are Poland, Austria, Slovakia, Luxembourg, Malta and Slovenia.

Diplomats said Germany was hoping to persuade Italy, home of the Roman Catholic church, to join the objectors, creating a blocking minority that would force an amendment.

A narrow majority in the European Parliament voted last month in favor of allowing continued public funding for stem-cell research. If Germany can force an amendment in the council of EU governments, parliament would have to reconsider the issue on a second reading.

Maybe that's why Bush was giving Merkel a shoulder rub at the G8 conference.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Welcome to falling behind

Thank god we're still light years ahead in everything else...

It's a good point, though. The federal ban is hurting the US in the biotech sector.

[Elok]

Frankly, I'd like IVF banned, or at least modified so that surplus embryos are not produced. Claiming to want "your own flesh and blood," and then killing 90% or more of your kids, is grotesque. Nor is there much point in spending so much time and resources manufacturing children when there are tons waiting for adoption, though I suppose it's up to the individual.

I don't approve of the Shrub's decision as such, but I don't see much to get choked up about. People were talking about miraculous cures for everything under the sun not too long ago, only they used to be referring to gene therapy. People went ahead with GT research, testing it on humans even before they understood exactly how genes are expressed (we still don't). There were a number of gruesome deaths in early trials, naturally, and the public freaked out. Support and funds for GT went down the crapper.

We seem to be pursuing the same half-arsed strategy with stem-cells. At least, I'm getting the impression that many researchers would gladly use stem cells as a treatment before understanding exactly what makes them tick; otherwise, there would be little reason to fuss over the embryonic vs. adult issue in terms of efficacy. I'm no scientist, but after the GT mess I wouldn't want to use ANYTHING on humans until I could control it like a dog on a leash. Which would mean being able to take just about any cell and turn it into a stem cell and back again, as many times as I wanted. The fact that some types of cell are predisposed to go that way would be all but irrelevant; aren't we trying to get to the point where we can make our own?

I realize some embryonic research, along with adult, could speed up the development by letting scientists look for distinctions between them. But I'm not hearing much about comparative studies of the two types of stem cells to find out the biochemical differences (are there? I gave up looking after the umpteenth whiny article). Instead there are just some races to see who can cure mice with Parkinson's the fastest, by whatever means. We already know these things are dynamite, now we need to find out why, unless we're planning on going for a Hail Mary with them ASAP. Again, I know I'm ignorant on the subject, but the whole atmosphere of these studies reeks of sloppiness.

So: supposing they get their funding from somewhere, it'll be a few short years before they inject modified cells from a blastocyst into some diabetic kid. They won't know exactly how it works, but with all the hype about raising the dead with stem cells, et cetera, researchers won't have much choice. People want to see results as soon as possible for all the sick people they think can be living happy lives tomorrow. Said kid will then die in a spectacularly unpleasant fashion for reasons we can't understand yet. The public will wig out like cattle in a thunderstorm ("they said it would fix everything, but it made his pancreas develop gigantic tumors in less than a week!"), and that will be that for stem-cell research. This miracle mentality won't solve anything.

[Kuciwalker]

We seem to be pursuing the same half-arsed strategy with stem-cells. At least, I'm getting the impression that many researchers would gladly use stem cells as a treatment before understanding exactly what makes them tick; otherwise, there would be little reason to fuss over the embryonic vs. adult issue in terms of efficacy.

It's more a matter of wanting to do research with them, not deploy them as miracle cures right now.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

We seem to be pursuing the same half-arsed strategy with stem-cells. At least, I'm getting the impression that many researchers would gladly use stem cells as a treatment before understanding exactly what makes them tick; otherwise, there would be little reason to fuss over the embryonic vs. adult issue in terms of efficacy.

It's more a matter of wanting to do research with them, not deploy them as miracle cures right now.

Yes, but all the research seems geared towards...finding miracle cures. Trying to find a way to cure disease X in mice is all well and good, but they put minimal effort into understanding the nuts and bolts of it all. That's secondary for some reason. At least, all the research I've heard about that's going on now, under the federal funding ban, is that way. Maybe they'd get real if federal cash were involved, but I doubt it. The main arguments against the ban are that embryonic stem cells have the most potential and suchlike; the phrasing implies, to me at least, that the plan is to find a way to deploy the stem cells that appears to work and do it ASAP. IOW, the same asinine attitude that ran gene therapy into the ground.

Mind you, I realize that if they took the time to actually figure it out first, a lot of people would die or at least suffer in the interval. And getting that kind of understanding would occur a lot more quickly with access to embryonic cells for comparison, so from a pro-life perspective it's pretty near moot. But just dashing in by trial and error is likely to cause significant complications itself. A tool as powerful as stem cells is bound to have unexpected effects.

[Drake Tungsten]

The federal ban is hurting the US in the biotech sector.

True, but that's not going to change the minds of those who find the destruction of embryos for stem cell research to be morally repugnant.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Elok
Yes, but all the research seems geared towards...finding miracle cures. Trying to find a way to cure disease X in mice is all well and good, but they put minimal effort into understanding the nuts and bolts of it all.

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion - are you just reading the Science section of the newspaper? That's the only sort of thing they actually report about.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

The federal ban is hurting the US in the biotech sector.

True, but that's not going to change the minds of those who find the destruction of embryos for stem cell research to be morally repugnant.

Campaign contributions form pharmaceutical companies, on the other hand...

[Drake Tungsten]

Note to the baby killers: figure out a way to use embryonic stem cells to supercharge Viagra and you'll have all the federal funding you could ever want.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
figure out a way to use embryonic stem cells to supercharge Interns and you'll have all the federal funding you could ever want.

Fixed.

[Drake Tungsten]

I'll kill the embryos myself for a supercharged intern!

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DanS
Good for Bush.

If y'all want to fund embryonic stem cell research, then go ahead. But not on my dime.

What happened to democracy and majority rule? The majority do not hate science and bur their heads in anti-science thinking such as life beginning at conception or that an embryo is some how more important then real living people who are dying. The vast majority of embryos abort naturally due to genitic defects yet you want these cells put to waste just as the vast nmajority of IVF enbryos are are thrown away because the donating adults don't have the $100,00-$200,000 to emplant another IVF embryo even though IVF typically creates 10 or so embryos per attempt.

The people who oppose stem cell research do not have any moral standing since the embryos will be thrown in the garbage and clearly the vast majority of Americans want this vitial scientific research to continue so sick people can be cured. To do less is egoism.