"what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop..."

[DanS]

Hezbollah is to blame, not the Lebanese Govt, not Lebanon and certainly not innocent Lebanese civilians...

You and Bush are in agreement then.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
I like the irony whereby Israel's precision strikes have killed 20 times as many Lebanese civilians (including about 100 children) than Hezbollah's random unguided missiles have killed Israeli citizens...

Nice spin. Grow a beard, and you get to be an honorary islamist for a day. Hisbullah's "random unguided" missiles have only failed to kill many Israelis (I know you're disappointed) because the Israelis have (a) taken refuge in shelters, or (b) most of the Hisbullah rockets have hit empty space. WRT Israeli targeting, it isn't their fault that the yellow bastards hide among civilians, but in your little world, that gives guerillas, terrorists and their ilk a free pass.

But then Israel is no stranger to war crimes is it - how many civilians were killed the last time Israel systematically destroyed Beirut? 20,000?

And how many were killed by Israelis, as opposed to Lebanese militias? And how many would have been killed if Syria and other arab countries hadn't been continuously attacking and planning to attack Israel, directly and/or through proxies?

Though I think the biggest stench of betrayal is that of the foreign powers who scuttle in to evacuate their citizens like rats off a sinking ship without so much as mildly admonishing Israel for its actions - indeed my country is actively supporting Israel's wanton destruction of a peaceful country and the murder of its children. Not that I am surprised any more...

A "peaceful" country which openly hosts a major terrorist force. Tell me what you bloody Brits would do to Ireland if the Irish government passively acquiesced to hosting a PIRA presence with the same level of force, armament, external financial support, and intentions toward England and English citizens as Hisbullah has towards Israel and the Israeli people?

Hezbollah is to blame, not the Lebanese Govt, not Lebanon and certainly not innocent Lebanese civilians...

And the Lebanese government allows Hisbullah to exist and operate against Israel from its territory, and even allows it as a part of the government.

Still then next time neighbour's kid throws a ball through my window, at least I'll know I can go over to his house, kill his dog, smash up his car, kill his kids that weren't even responsible and then systematically destroy his house around him while he's inside - because that folks, is Israeli Justice...

Leave it to an ignorant twit like you to trivialize the threat Hisbullah and its sponsors present to Israel to a kid throwing a ball through your window.

Then when the dust has settled the kid that did it can come back and throw another ball through another window...

Not if you kill him too.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by DanS
You and Bush are in agreement then.

Unfortunately, Isreal is not. This is one position I think Bush has correct, though whether he'll do anything on the basis of it is another question entirely.

[GePap]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The '73 was spun as an Arab victory, cuz they only lost a little bit, instead of getting their asses handed to them as usual. In 82, it was only an air war in Lebanon, so it wasn't a serious defeat. Not like if Israeli tanks were in Damascus.

You honestly think israel would ever send tanks into Damascus? Cause they would be stuck there, and If Israel could not occupy Lebanon, it has no chance in Syria. That is why you are wrong on this issue: Israel does not have the simple manpower to support an occupation of one of its larger neighbors. Whgo would replace Assad? There is no one in Syria who would work for Israel. The baathists would retain power, there is no alternative. NO democratic forces would want to take over in such conditions, as they would be painted Israelis stooges, with no future once Israel left.

As I said before, Israel has enough power to beat the armies of its enemies. They do not have enough power to remake the region.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Nice spin. Grow a beard, and you get to be an honorary islamist for a day. Hisbullah's "random unguided" missiles have only failed to kill many Israelis (I know you're disappointed) because the Israelis have (a) taken refuge in shelters, or (b) most of the Hisbullah rockets have hit empty space. WRT Israeli targeting, it isn't their fault that the yellow bastards hide among civilians, but in your little world, that gives guerillas, terrorists and their ilk a free pass.

So I take it Haifa is as badly damaged as Beirut then? Only Jewish Israelis have taken refuge in shelters because Israel does not see fit to build them for Arab Israelis - or even warn them in Arabic.

Ah, so in MtG's little world it's OK to kill say 10 civilians for every terrorist? More? Less? Just wondering what would be an acceptable threshold for MtG sponsored 'collateral damage'?

What about [/QUOTE]these guys

On Saturday, a number of families fled the southern Lebanese village of Marwahin after the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) warned them to evacuate ahead of a threatened attack. On the road leading to the coast through Chamaa, however, Israeli missiles struck a convoy of the civilians. Maps of southern Lebanon show this road to be the only direct route for escaping the dangerous border area.

And that incident is just one of dozens...

Yep, MtG thinks using Nazi-esque tactics on women and children is a great idea!

Besides, wasn't it the Israelis who fired the first missiles? As I remember it was Hezbollah who engaged them face to face in the first place...

And how many were killed by Israelis, as opposed to Lebanese militias? And how many would have been killed if Syria and other arab countries hadn't been continuously attacking and planning to attack Israel, directly and/or through proxies?

Indeed, Sharon got his allied militias to do the dirty work for him at Sabra and Chatilla whilst the IDF watched...

A "peaceful" country which openly hosts a major terrorist force. Tell me what you bloody Brits would do to Ireland if the Irish government passively acquiesced to hosting a PIRA presence with the same level of force, armament, external financial support, and intentions toward England and English citizens as Hisbullah has towards Israel and the Israeli people?

Are you really that much of a fool to believe that?

Even the right-wing pro Israelis on this site openly admit that Lebanon is too weak to do anything about Hezbollah.

And the Lebanese government allows Hisbullah to exist and operate against Israel from its territory, and even allows it as a part of the government.

You mean just like the UK allows Sinn Fein to operate in Ulster? Man your apologist rants are really clouding your judgement today MtG...

Leave it to an ignorant twit like you to trivialize the threat Hisbullah and its sponsors present to Israel to a kid throwing a ball through your window.

I was trying to make it easier for you to understand - it appears you have because you haven't denied the analogy...

Not if you kill him too.

Just like last time eh?

Nope, assuming you've even got these ones - which I doubt given the lack of Hezbollah casualty figures - many more will take their place now that Israel has pissed them off by killing their relatives etc...

No, as usual the innocent are the ones to pay the price while the people that pull the strings get away with murder (on both sides). Geez MtG, what happened, old age make you senile or something? You used to be smarter than this apologist knee-jerk ranting...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Unfortunately, Isreal is not. This is one position I think Bush has correct, though whether he'll do anything on the basis of it is another question entirely.

MtG is dumber than Bush!?!?!?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Interesting series of pictures: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...age/html/1.stm

Interesting:

Bush is a lot more media-savvy than people give him credit for.

[chequita guevara]

Aparently, Israel is using human shields. Many of their weapons depots are located near Arab villages in Galille. These villages, also, have not been provided bomb shleters, so when the Hizbollah rockets come trying to destroy the weapons, the Arabs have no place to hide.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
So I take it Haifa is as badly damaged as Beirut then? Only Jewish Israelis have taken refuge in shelters because Israel does not see fit to build them for Arab Israelis - or even warn them in Arabic.

So what's the casualty count of Arab Israelis? And I'm sure they don't understand what those air raid sirens mean. Besides, they can't read the "für Arabien verboten" signs on the shelter entrances, so what's the big deal?

Ah, so in MtG's little world it's OK to kill say 10 civilians for every terrorist? More? Less? Just wondering what would be an acceptable threshold for MtG sponsored 'collateral damage'?

If I choose to live in a neighborhood controlled by terrorirsts, and live among them, then I expect there might actually be some consequences to that when their targets get sick of being hit.

What about these guys

And that incident is just one of dozens...

It sucks. But a nice reach - take one documented issue, and add the "just one of dozens" tag to avoid talking about real issues.

Yep, MtG thinks using Nazi-esque tactics on women and children is a great idea!

I haven't read the whole thread, but congrats if you're the first to Godwinize it. Too bad you hit the limits of your intellectual depth so early, but it's such a shallow drop I'm sure you can't have suffered any harm.

[quote]
Besides, wasn't it the Israelis who fired the first missiles? As I remember it was Hezbollah who engaged them face to face in the first place...

Indeed, Sharon got his allied militias to do the dirty work for him at Sabra and Chatilla whilst the IDF watched...

C'mon, you can do better. They're stinkin' Jews, fer Chrissakes, don't you think they printed programs and set up concessions and sold tickets to the events, not just "watched?"

Are you really that much of a fool to believe that?

Even the right-wing pro Israelis on this site openly admit that Lebanon is too weak to do anything about Hezbollah.

Gee, Lebanon can't do anything about it, so therefore, nobody should do anything about it. Perhaps a new government, or new "sponsors" are needed who will address the problem.

You mean just like the UK allows Sinn Fein to operate in Ulster? Man your apologist rants are really clouding your judgement today MtG...

And do those Sinn Fein types openly endorse and declare themselves to be one and the same with PIRA? Or did they perhaps abandon any concept of unification and armed conflict as a precondition to political participation?

I was trying to make it easier for you to understand - it appears you have because you haven't denied the analogy...

There was no analogy to deny. Just typical moronic drivel from Mobystan.

Nope, assuming you've even got these ones - which I doubt given the lack of Hezbollah casualty figures - many more will take their place now that Israel has pissed them off by killing their relatives etc...

Oh yeah, the typical "kill one and you create one" rhetorical argument.

No, as usual the innocent are the ones to pay the price while the people that pull the strings get away with murder (on both sides). Geez MtG, what happened, old age make you senile or something? You used to be smarter than this apologist knee-jerk ranting...

Naah, old age makes me want to when I read your lame prose and excuses.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Aparently, Israel is using human shields. Many of their weapons depots are located near Arab villages in Galille. These villages, also, have not been provided bomb shleters, so when the Hizbollah rockets come trying to destroy the weapons, the Arabs have no place to hide.

And did you know that Arab babies are kosher?

WTF in Israel isn't near a village? It's not like it's wide open desert like most of Iraq, or Syria, for that matter.

And tell me, what guidance systems and targeting is Hisbullah using to "try to destroy the weapons?"

[MichaeltheGreat]

Enjoy your stay in Mobystan, guys. I've got some blackened salmon to prepare for dinner.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Aparently, Israel is using human shields. Many of their weapons depots are located near Arab villages in Galille.

Non sequiter.

[chequita guevara]

No, Israel puts military targets near Arab villages to keep Hezbollah rockets from being fired at them.

[chequita guevara]

Is Israel Using Arab Villages as Human Shields?

By JONATHAN COOK



Nazareth hit the international headlines for the first time in this vicious war being waged by Israel mostly on Lebanese civilians. Reporter Matthew Price, corseted in a blue flak jacket in Haifa, told BBC viewers that for the first time Hizbullah had targeted Nazareth late on Sunday. “Nazareth is a mostly Christian town”, he added, managing to cram into a single sentence of a few words two factual mistakes and a disturbing hint of incitement.

Whatever the precision of its rockets (and Nazareth’s residents are certainly worried enough about that), Hizbullah struck not at Nazareth but at a site some distance from Nazareth -- a site of strategic significance to Israel, though I cannot say more than that as we are now officially under martial law in the country’s north.

Matthew Price was also wrong about Nazareth being a “mostly Christian town”. During the 1948 war in which Israel’s army ethnically cleansed much of the surrounding area of Palestinians, Muslim villagers fled to Nazareth in search of sanctuary. Today, two-thirds of the city’s 75,000 inhabitants are Muslim -- or at least they are by the religious classification system imposed on all citizens by the Israeli authorities.

Which brings us to the nasty element of incitement from our BBC reporter.

Several Israeli armaments factories and storage depots have been built close by Arab communities in the north of Israel, possibly in the hope that by locating them there Arab regimes will be deterred from attacking Israel’s enormous armory. In other words, the inhabitants of several of Israel’s Arab towns and villages have been turned into collective human shields -- protection for Israel’s war machine.

Before the strike close to Nazareth late on Sunday night, several Arab villages in the north had been hit by Hizbullah rockets trying to reach these factories. No one at the BBC saw the need to mention these attacks nor the fact that “mostly Muslim” villages had been hit. So why did the strike against Nazareth -- and its mistaken Christian status -- became part of the story for the BBC?

Because Israel wants to portray Hizbullah, and its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, as a crazed Islamic militia, as fanatical Muslims who hate Jews and Christians with equal vehemence. This is all part of Israel’s claim that it is fighting George Bush’s “war on terror”. Predictably, the BBC obliged by regurgitating this piece of racist nonsense.

If anybody still doubts that Israel is shaping the news agenda of broadcasters like the BBC, here was as good as the proof.

* * *

According to the jingoistic Jerusalem Post, the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office and the army are delirious at their success in dictating the headlines and tone of foreign news broadcasts.

Ehud Olmert’s media adviser, Assif Shariv, told the Post that the international media were interviewing Israeli spokespeople four times as much as spokespeople for the Palestinians and Lebanese. Another government adviser, Gideon Meir, boasted: “We have never had it so good. The hasbara [propaganda] effort is a well-oiled machine."

Which may explain why we know so little about what is happening in Lebanon and Gaza -- and why we know so little about what is happening inside Israel too.

To remind you, I, like other residents of northern Israel, am under martial law. As are the foreign journalists -- and in addition they are required to submit their copy to the military censor. So all I can tell you, without breaking the law, is that you are not hearing the entire picture of what has been happening here in the Galilee.

Certainly, a piece of news that I doubt you will hear from the foreign media, although bravely the liberal Hebrew media has been drawing attention to the matter, is that the “only democracy in the Middle East” has all but silenced al-Jazeera from reporting inside Israel.

The reason is clear: until recently al-Jazeera had been running rings around the local and foreign press.

Al-Jazeera is the Arab world’s most serious and popular news gatherer, and essential viewing for anyone who wants to get a realistic idea of the news from both sides of the border. When I heard the missile strike close by Nazareth on Sunday night, al-Jazeera told me what had happened a full half hour before the Israeli media, and a day before my colleague Matthew Price.

How do they do it? Because most of their staff in Israel are Israeli citizens, as well as being Palestinian Arabs. Their journalists belong to the forgotten fifth of the Israeli population whose citizenship is Israeli but whose nationality is Palestinian.

So not only do al-Jazeera’s reporters know the northern patch of Israel like home ground (because it is home ground) but they are also not cravenly waiting for the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office and army’s spokesman to tell them what is going on.

Watching al-Jazeera has been a revelation: it has dedicated a substantial portion of its coverage to events inside Israel as well as in Lebanon, in stark contrast to Israeli broadcasters who rarely use any of the footage from Lebanon.

Similarly, al-Jazeera faithfully translated Ehud Olmert’s speech word for word into Arabic, and then included a lengthy analysis from a local correspondent for its viewers. Israeli broadcasters, on the other hand, repeatedly mistranslated the televised words of Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah into Hebrew and English, removing context and his calls for negotiation.

Similar misrepresentations of Nasrallah’s position in the foreign media presumably reflected their over-reliance on the Israeli broadcasters.

But al-Jazeera’s coverage inside Israel -- the Arab world’s best chance of being exposed to the Israeli point of view -- is being effectively shut down. In the past two days, its editor has been arrested on two occasions and another senior journalists taken in for questioning. According to its reporters, they cannot move from their office without being followed by the Israeli security services.

Why are they receiving this treatment? Because, according to Israel’s only serious newspaper, Haaretz, the country’s Hebrew media have been inciting against them. In particular Reshet Bet radio station, one of several wings of the Israeli media loyal to the government, has been telling lies that al-Jazeera is revealing classified information, namely the location of rocket strikes.

Is the claim true? According to Haaretz again: “Other TV networks, including Israeli news services, made similar reports without suffering from police intervention.”

Freedom of the press rarely means much when governments go to war. The local media usually consider it their patriotic duty not only to strip of vital context the information they offer their viewers but they often falsify the record too. Much of Israel’s media are clearly doing both jobs with some accomplishment.

But the fact that some in the Israeli media see it as part of their job to silence journalists not as craven as themselves is the real eye-opener. Maybe they realise al-Jazeera just makes them look like propagandists.

* * *

Nabila Espanioly, the director of a charitable organization in Nazareth promoting women and children’s interests, makes a point worth remembering as the foreign and Israeli media huddle in the shelters of Haifa and Nahariya interviewing terrified “Israelis”.

In fact, they are talking not to Israelis but to Israeli Jews. The fifth of the Israeli population who are not Jewish but Arab are rarely to be found hiding in public shelters because the authorities neglected to build any in their towns and villages.

In other words, although the Israeli army has sited several important weapons factories and military intelligence posts close to Arab communities in the north, the Israeli government has not offered the Arab residents any protection should there be fall-out -- quite literally in the case of the Katyusha rockets -- as a result.

This is another tiny facet of the discrimination endured for decades by the country’s Arab population that so rarely surfaces in media coverage of Israel.

Similarly oblivious to the ironies, the Israeli and foreign media have been running heart-warming stories about how “Israelis” are opening their homes and hearths to their compatriots fleeing the north. Again for “Israelis” substitute “Israeli Jews”.

No one I know here in Nazareth believes they would find much of a welcome in Tel Aviv or Beersheva should they go looking for one. Which leaves them with nowhere to run should they need to.

The only Arab communities out of the line of Hizbullah fire are those in the southern Negev belonging to the Bedouin. But that is not much comfort. Most of the Negev’s 150,000 Bedouin have been forced to live in squalid tents and metal shacks by an Israeli government that bulldozes anything more permanent. The authorities also deprive many of the Bedouin communities of water and all public services. So sweating it out with the Katyushas may be the better option.

* * *

A final footnote -- one to ponder in the quieter moments after the worst of the suffering is over. Those Israeli Jews fleeing for their lives as they head south to the quiet -- so far at least -- of Tel Aviv and beyond offer a small echo of events nearly six decades ago when 750,000 Palestinians were forced to leave their homes by the Israeli army.

Israeli Jews have always taken the view -- and happily tell any outsiders as much -- that the “Arabs” lost the right to their homes in the war of 1948 because they “fled” (in fact many were forcibly expelled, but let that drop for the moment).

The Israeli government has adopted much the same view, even refusing to allow the 250,000 of its own Arab citizens who are classified as internal refugees -- their ancestors fled the fighting in 1948 but have citizenship because they stayed inside what is today Israel -- to return to their original homes and land.

So how exactly should we regard those Israeli Jews now fleeing from Nahariya and Haifa? Should they lose their homes, their land and their bank accounts just as the Palestinians did in 1948?

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His book, “Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State”, is published by Pluto Press. His website is www.jkcook.net

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, Israel puts military targets near Arab villages to keep Hezbollah rockets from being fired at them.

We have a National Guard armory in DC, too. OMG HUMAN SHIELDS!