Middle East thread continued

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Edan
Israel already tried the carrot pulling out of Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza last year and it hasn't helped.

How is it "not helping"?

You have two organizations famous for killing civilians in a the most undiscriminiating manner, through terror attacks. Hundreds of Israeli innocents have been killed in this barbaric fashion.
Now, these two organizations attack the military, and are even willing to capture soldiers for the aims of negociation, and you think there was no progress? ****, they finally showed their first signs of behaviour as standard guerillas, and you don't even notice.

But yeah, it's much better that Hamas resumes its sending of suicide bombers in Tel Aviv's buses again

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by Edan


He had been killed right after being kidnapped:



link

And unlike Gaza and Lebanon, Israel hasn't pulled out of the West Bank, which would mean that it would be easier to operate there.

True about Israel still being in the West Bank but irrelevant that he was shot immeadiately after the abduction since this was not known.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Spiffor

How is it "not helping"?

You have two organizations famous for killing civilians in a the most undiscriminiating manner, through terror attacks. Hundreds of Israeli innocents have been killed in this barbaric fashion.
Now, these two organizations attack the military, and are even willing to capture soldiers for the aims of negociation, and you think there was no progress? ****, they finally showed their first signs of behaviour as standard guerillas, and you don't even notice.

But yeah, we just can't wait for Hamas to detonate someone in front of a bus in Tel Aviv again

I completely agree for the Hamas kidnappings but not for the Hezbullah attacks. Hamas now represents the palestinians whereas Hezbullah represents a hostile foreign organization and it must be destroyed or nullified.

The problem in the case of Hezbullah is that there was also a long and ongoing rocket artillary campaign on their part which Israel was somewhat constrained in responding against because it needed an obviously "official" action by hezbullah in which hezbullah's responsibility was crystal clear in order to justify acting in lebannon by international standards. Hezbullah needed to be removed from south lebanon in any event and this capture simply serves as the appropriate diplomatic cover to do so.

The problem on Israels part now is eliminating Hezbullah in a way that strengthens the non-hezbullah components of Lebanon. If Israel continues to focus all of it's attacks on areas overwhelmingly controlled by Hezbullah this may be possible to achieve.

[Spiffor]

From the BBC:

Israel kills Lebanese civilians
An Israeli air raid has killed at least 17 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas.

Women and children were among those killed when the convoy was hit. "Bodies litter the road," an eyewitness said.

Israel has expanded its campaign launched after Hezbollah militants seized two Israeli soldiers. More than 70 Lebanese have been killed.

Hezbollah has responded with rockets. Several have hit the town of Tiberias in the deepest such attack in Israel.

Three Israeli sailors are missing after their ship was hit by a Hezbollah missile on Friday. The body of a fourth was found, according to Israeli media.

The ship had caught fire after it was hit by an Iranian-made missile, the Israeli military said.



Israeli jets have also fired rockets on the Lebanon-Syrian border.

The exact location of the Israeli action is not clear, but Syria has denied that Israel hit targets in its territory.

"The air force is bombing roads and bridges on the border between Lebanon and Syria to prevent Hezbollah from taking our captured soldiers out of the country," an Israeli army spokeswoman said, quoted by the Agence France Presse news agency.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said the offensive will continue until Hezbollah releases the soldiers and stops firing rockets at Israel.

At least four people have been injured in the Tiberias rocket-fire, which came as Israel deployed Patriot interceptor missiles in the northern port city of Haifa.

In other attacks:

* Israeli planes struck the northern port city of Tripoli, and carried out raids in north and north-eastern Lebanon for the first time

* They targeted the port and a lighthouse in the capital Beirut and destroyed the headquarters of Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah amid a series of strikes on the southern suburbs, which are a Hezbollah stronghold

* Three civilians were killed in an Israeli attack in Hermel, on the border with Syria, Hezbollah's al-Manar TV said

* Israeli warplanes also targeted sites in the eastern city of Baalbek.

Nowhere to flee

A number of families were fleeing their village of Marwahin on the Israeli border when their convoy was struck by missiles on the coastal road to Tyre, a UN spokesman told the BBC.


ISRAEL IN LEBANON
March 1978: Israel invades to stop Palestinian attacks
1982: Full-scale invasion; Israel occupies Beirut; pro-Israel militias massacre Palestinian refugees
May 1983: Israel pulls back, but keeps "security zone"
February 1992: Israeli air strike kills Hezbollah leader
1996: Israel launches "Grapes of Wrath" raids on Hezbollah; 100 civilians die under Israeli shelling of UN base at Qana
May 2000: Israel withdraws troops from Lebanon
January 2004: Prisoners-bodies swap agreed between Hezbollah and Israel

Local residents told al-Jazeera TV the villagers had been hit after being told to leave Marwahin by the Israelis and then refused shelter by the UN forces.

The main road had been under continuous bombardment, Ahmad Ali Ubayd said.

"Where is the international justice when children, women, and the elderly are killed?" he said.

The Israeli Army said the responsibility for endangering the civilian population rested with Hezbollah, and they regretted civilian casualties while targeting areas used as a launching ground for missiles.

Correspondents say there is nowhere safe to go for many trying to flee the south.

In past hostilities, much of the mainly Shia population of the south has sought refuge in Beirut's largely Shia southern suburbs, which are now under attack too.

A number of bridges, petrol stations and key roads have also been hit, including the main road linking northern Lebanon to Syria.


HAVE YOUR SAY
Violence should always be a last resort, not the first
Stephen Macadam, Rugby, UK

Thousands of foreigners have fled Beirut, leaving its economy in tatters.

Countries including the US and France are making plans to evacuate their nationals from Lebanon.

The presidents of the US and Russia have differed in emphasis in voicing concern about the Mid-East crisis at the G8 summit in St Petersburg.

George W Bush urged Lebanon's Hezbollah to disarm while Vladimir Putin called for a "balanced" use of force by Israel.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
A 17 year old settler was kidnapped near the Westbank, after the kidnapping near Gaza and before the kidnapping by Hizbullah. He was murdered after several days. As far as I can remember Israel did not launched a military campaign in the Westbank to rescue him similar the one in Gaza.

The reason they didn't could be that it was a PRC action and not a Hamas - that is, a non-governmental organisation.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Spiffor

How is it "not helping"?

You have two organizations famous for killing civilians in a the most undiscriminiating manner, through terror attacks. Hundreds of Israeli innocents have been killed in this barbaric fashion.
Now, these two organizations attack the military, and are even willing to capture soldiers for the aims of negociation, and you think there was no progress? ****, they finally showed their first signs of behaviour as standard guerillas, and you don't even notice.

But yeah, it's much better that Hamas resumes its sending of suicide bombers in Tel Aviv's buses again

Actually, it's preferable that Hamas and Hezbollah be weakened so that other groups in their respective territories can supplant them. It would be much better if states on Israel's borders are no longer led by terrorist organizations that want to attack Israel.

[Barnabas]

A girl from another forum I post in, lives in lebanon and just posted this

I have been watching the pounding of Haret Hreik from my window for 3 days and right now we all wish the hizbollah to be exterminated.

A jewish poster replied

well -her name-, ive said it before i do not wish ill of you or the ordinary citezens of Lebanon, even if they are muslims. Stay safe k

and the lebanese girl replied

Thanks. For the moment the strikes are incredibly precise. I'm within a few minutes' walking distance from the targeted area and I feel quite safe, although I'm getting a headache from the constant air raids. Hopefully we'll have a more quiet night.

[Dr Kellogg]

Is anyone else annoyed by that anti Israeli European media? That sucks.
These journalists are on the spot wherever a Palestinian kid is killed by Israeli soldiers and the whole world is scandalised. But none ask what kind of people send their own children into a so-called holy war and celebrate their martyrdom.
Everyone thinks the weak one must be the good one. Israel has huge nasty tanks so they must be nasty too. None realises that 50 years old katyushas can kill innocent people as well.

I don't agree with Israeli politics. But I have confidence in Israel. At least they will try to avoid that civilists get kill.
But I know one thing for sure. It is the Hezbollah's ambition to hit as much people as possible.

I recommend this article from the Der Spiegel
It is written from an interesting point of view ignoring all these deceiving emotions you have when watching Israeli aircraft bombing Bairut or Israeli tanks driving through the streets of Ghaza
Sadly it is only in German

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,426851,00.html

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Dr Kellogg

Sadly it is only in German
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...426851,00.html

It hurt a bit, but was readable If a danish journalist wrote such, he should be prepared to be attacked heavily including comments about his mothers (ab)use of animals.

Good to see that there actually is european journalists without bias and who dare to speak out

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Edan


Israel already tried the carrot pulling out of Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza last year and it hasn't helped. Now it's resorting to the stick.

Restraining force is hardly a "carrot" both instances are an example of the use of a "stick"

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
A girl from another forum I post in, lives in lebanon and just posted this






A jewish poster replied



and the lebanese girl replied

And these two individuals both show sane and reasonable thought processes. Good.

[Sirotnikov]

to the Spiegel. It was always fair.


As to the question - why didn't we react to the 2nd kidnapping by Al-Aqsa - we hadn't time to respond because we were considering the situation.

Also - it is much more difficult to respond there. There is no actual government that can take responsability. The Hamas government was already under Israeli pressure and attack. There was little more we could do.

We didn't have any spare info on Hamas or Al-Aqsa buildings. If we had - we would have already destroyed them by now.

In Lebanon - we had hundreds of known Hezbullah sites but haven't done anything, until now.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Dr Kellogg
Everyone thinks the weak one must be the good one. Israel has huge nasty tanks so they must be nasty too. None realises that 50 years old katyushas can kill innocent people as well.

I don't think it's weakness = goodness so much as:

-Israel, being stronger and more advanced, is in a better position for leniency, or at least appears to be.
-Palestinian attacks are usually performed by terror squads or militias, not directly and officially executed by soldiers. It's like the hiring of privateers back in colonial days, rather than warships under a flag. The source of the orders is the same, but it's not obvious and hard to prove. In fact, we can't be entirely sure which terrorists are officially sanctioned and which are just overlooked.
-The Palestinians et al tend to live in wretched conditions, which is at least partly their own fault (as a people, not necessarily as individuals) but tends to arouse sympathy.
-The Palestinians have been acting vicious for so long that we've come to expect no better from them. Their ideology doesn't really honor civilian-combatant distinctions. Israel supposedly does, which makes civilian casualties...hypocritical is too strong a word, but something like that. They're supposed to be avoiding those, so it looks worse for them.

When a human's fighting off a pit bull, we might frown on excessive force by the human. It never occurs to us that the dog might act any other way; the dumb animal's just doing what it was bred, born, and trained to do. Palestinians are humans, but as a military group they've been acting more like pit bulls, so we tend to think of them that way after all this time.

EDIT: realized that "beating off a pit bull" has a comical lewd connotation.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by General Ludd


Restraining force is hardly a "carrot" both instances are an example of the use of a "stick"

You are quite right, only israelis volounteerly entering deathcamps can be considered a "carrot" every other action done by them is per definition "stick"

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
to the Spiegel. It was always fair.


As to the question - why didn't we react to the 2nd kidnapping by Al-Aqsa - we hadn't time to respond because we were considering the situation.

Also - it is much more difficult to respond there. There is no actual government that can take responsability. The Hamas government was already under Israeli pressure and attack. There was little more we could do.

We didn't have any spare info on Hamas or Al-Aqsa buildings. If we had - we would have already destroyed them by now.

In Lebanon - we had hundreds of known Hezbullah sites but haven't done anything, until now.

Ok, that all sounds fair enough, one may want to quibble that Hamas wasn't acting as gov't in the kidnappings, but everything is a bit fuzzy in the Palestinian territories so I can't blame you for taking that view.
However I don't understand how bombing civilian Lebanese infrastructure (bridges, highway, airport runway...) fits in the story of destroying Hizbullah's installations. Even Der Spiegel states that the IDF bombed the fuel tanks of a power plant and that most deads are civilians.