Ancient Maritime Culture in the Bahamas

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
I'm trying hard, but I can't find the bit.

The dragon- clear proof of transpacific cultural contact.


Just a pity that the Chinese forgot to include ocean going vessels tech, immunity against measles & smallpox, ironworking and so on.

The fools...

Scary, hein?

As a good lapsed Catholic I know you don't mess with the guard dogs of the Inquisition.

Aztec pistachio ice cream vendor:

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by molly bloom
immunity against measles & smallpox,

If only the Europeans had done so...

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper


*shrug* The fact remains, though: Because of what Europeans did in the past, we will likely never know the full and true extent of human civilization in the Americas.

Frankly, I'm beginning to think human civilization in the "New World" might be almost as old as in the "Old World." If that's the case, there could very well be remnants of cultures dating back to 5000 BC or earlier.

At any rate, I wish archaeologists and scientists the best in tracking down the answers. They've got their work cut out for them.

Gatekeeper

P.S. It's possible that even if records had survived the European arrival, we wouldn't have a full picture of the pre-Columbian Americas. Humans have a tendency to destroy things, it seems, at the slightest provocation. Still, we'd have more than what we have now, had history turned out slightly different.

At least as guilty are the germs carried by those Europeans. Most of the native Americans died of disease. Entire societies collapsed.

The other problem is that almost none of the native socieities had writing (Aztec, Maya).

I find the little we do know fascinating, though.

-Arrian

edit: doh, I see now, having read the rest of the thread, that this has been well-covered.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Odin



It is accepted by sane historians that it was 900 years and got turned into 9000 by copying errors. 600BC - 900 years = 1500BC, the early Mycenean period.

Its also accepted that "historians" are actually "heretics" due to errors from the same copier.

[Berzerker]

You should read better. I said this kind of linguistic proofs, i.e. based on mere word similarities.

Similarities are what linguists look for first. That makes similarities of interest for those looking for links between peoples. If two peoples on either side of an ocean have a very similar word for it, that suggests past contacts between the peoples. I'd say, lets look for more connections and you'd call it a coincidence. Dont take those odds to Vegas...

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Elok
Fascinating...so, the Aztecs, whose culture emerged around 1200 AD, managed to retain their word for "water," unchanged, since the ice age, despite the fact that English has taken a little more than a thousand years of change to make Beowulf unreadable to us....

Well the Indo-European word for pig is supposed to be *Porkos*, so sometimes words are conserved, but I agree completely with the aim of your post.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Berzerker

Similarities are what linguists look for first. That makes similarities of interest for those looking for links between peoples. If two peoples on either side of an ocean have a very similar word for it, that suggests past contacts between the peoples. I'd say, lets look for more connections and you'd call it a coincidence. Dont take those odds to Vegas...

The fact is that there are far more false cognates than real ones. This is because there are a limited number of sounds readily producible by humans and a large number of concepts in need of words. A group of people speaking the same language who are seperated will not speak the same language in a fairly short period of time if one of the populations is large. More will be different than the same. One cognate is extremely slim evidence.

[Gatekeeper]

Hmm. I thought archaeologists had uncovered the ruins of really ancient cities off the coast of India, dating back to roughly 7000 BC or so. No, it's not the Caribbean or Mesoamerica, but it does indicate that humanity's civilized roots stretch back in time quite a considerable distance.

Gatekeeper

[Seeker]

The Indo-European words have much more substantial evidence. Whatshisface, the 'Father of Linguistics', correllated a huge list of words and parts of speech to prove his case and it took most of his lifetime, it was not just a few words.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Hmm. I thought archaeologists had uncovered the ruins of really ancient cities off the coast of India, dating back to roughly 7000 BC or so. No, it's not the Caribbean or Mesoamerica, but it does indicate that humanity's civilized roots stretch back in time quite a considerable distance.

Gatekeeper

Yes, but the problem with the Atlantis myth is that it rests on very shaky foundations, and not ones off the coasts of India.

Who is our source for " Atlantis: The Story "?

Plato, and ONLY Plato, in his 'Timaeus' and 'Critias'. He doesn't say he was witness to it, or spoke to Atlanteans- he says an Athenian named Solon heard the story from an Egyptian priest.

This Solon then passed the information to the great-grandfather of Critias, who was told the story by HIS grandfather.

It's not ancient history as we know it, Jim. And I don't think it was ever meant to be- for Plato was a political philosopher, concerned with the idea of the good state- so immoral god-defying Atlantis must be destroyed.

By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power.

It's also worth noting that no-one seriously claims to have discovered the lands of Utopia, or Erewhon or Lilliput or Blefescu.

[Sikander]

"You can make it with Plato!"