Israeli aircraft strike Palestinian PM’s office

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by General Ludd
genocide genocide genocide LOL

He's taking them at their word.

perhaps it would be better if madmen were taken at their word more often.

[Vesayen]

For instance, maybe adolf hitler? You know when lunatics write down their plans(such as kill all Jews) and they then come into power, you might want to take what they wrote seriously.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Admiral
I do not deny that the current government of Palestine is more extreme than the current government of Israel. But, and leaving aside your continued mischaracterization of Hamas and the actions of the Israeli government, the Israeli government has been incredibly stupid. Before Hamas won the election, it as an organization had nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by being as extremist as possible. Once they won that election, they should have had something to lose. But when Israel immediately refused to recognize Hamas' role in the government, Israel denied Hamas the responsibility of being a government. Of course Hamas is still waging a low-level terror campaign against Israel. If Hamas didn't, it would no longer hold any power.

You are heavily blurring the difference between Israel's so called "stupidity" and the Hamas government's agression and fundamentalism.

It is completely not legible for comparison.

If you could claim Israel mischaracerized the Hamas government previously - it is much more difficult to do, when it acts as a representative for a terrorist organization that has killed and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, beyond its borders.

It is also difficult to do so, when the government is justifying the actions, and some high rankers have possibly known in advance, and approved of the kidnapping.


You are also in some way trying to blur the effects of a "low-level" terror campaign run by an official government against another state, and call of justification by means of rationalization. "Why it is only expected that they do this!".
Hey - excuse me - since when does rationalization equals justification?

Yes - I understand why supposedly the Hamas government wants to promote terrorism. Last time I checked - that does not make it alright. And they ought to be punished severely.

You also, seem to imply that it is Israel's unwillingness to recognize the Hamas government that has lead Hamas back to a terror path or possibly to the kidnapping. This is silly and irresponsible since Hamas has never renounced terrorism. On the contrary - it has announced on several occassions that terrorism will continue as a chosen strategy when in government.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Vesayen
This is different. The goverment of "Palestine" is directly responsible for this kidnapping.

That has never happened before, not really.

So if A Republican slaps me, I can claim Bush is responsible?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Vesayen
I have a harder time justifying the destruction of the homes of terrorists but really there is a rational argument for it.

There was a rational reason for the Holocaust. That doesn't make it justifiable.

[notyoueither]

The red herring are flying.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by notyoueither
To hear you tell it, the US should be happy and accept it when and if AQ is elected to the government of a country.

That would be a very positive development for the Bush adminstration I would think. accepting no, but happy to have someone to bomb the hell out of yes.


As for the topic of the thread. Either the leaders of Hamas are lieing or they really should get their people under control since they claim they have no idea who actually kidnapped the soldier. Hamas comes out of this looking very amaturish for not being able to stand up to Israel and appearing to not being able to control those who claim to be apart of their organization.

BTW, anyone have an organizational chart for Palastinian groups. I thought I had all the groups figured out but apparently there are either new groups or I'm missing something..

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
So collective punishment of the Palestinians because one Israeli soldier was kidnapped is justified? If they did this every time an Israeli died...

What really galls me is the "collective punishment" meted out by the United States on the Japanese people after a few of them (allegedly) attacked the U.S. at Pearl Harbor.

How many governments would accept daily artillery fire aimed at their civilian population without a robust military response? Who would respect such a government? This soldier's kidnapping is just the last straw.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sikander


What really galls me is the "collective punishment" meted out by the United States on the Japanese people after a few of them (allegedly) attacked the U.S. at Pearl Harbor.

Actually, sorry, this statement is so absurd, its beyond roll eyes...

How many governments would accept daily artillery fire aimed at their civilian population without a robust military response?

HOw many governments would accept regular air raids against them before a military response?

Who would respect such a government?

Apparantly you would.

This soldier's kidnapping is just the last straw.

What does that have to do with strikes at civilian infrastructure?

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Vesayen
I have a harder time justifying the destruction of the homes of terrorists but really there is a rational argument for it.

There was a rational reason for the Holocaust. That doesn't make it justifiable.

At worst case the immorality of bulldozing the homes of terrorists famillies are in no way comprable to murdering millions and trying to commit genocide.

Furthermore, depending on which group they are in and the date(it has come and gone), the famillies of suicide bombers have gotten large cash payouts from foreign goverments, such as Iraq and Iran(stupid reason to invade either of them for THAT, this is another topic though). In which case, they are directly gaining from the criminal act of their familly member.

In that case, #### em.

Bulldozing the homes of terrorists famillies is one of the only effective methods are dissuading suicide bombers-it is justifiable.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by GePap



Actually, sorry, this statement is so absurd, its beyond roll eyes...

The statement was making a comparison of the collective punishment meted out in world war 2 to the collective punishment meted out in response the actions of the hamas government. The analogy is far from perfect due to various differences between the two situations and in fact it may be possible to show how it is not a useful analogy at all. But absurd?? You'll have to help me see how it is so absurd that "its beyond roll eyes...". Or is that just hyperbole for dramatic effect?


I do however, think a better analogy might be made to shermans tactics of collective punishment in the US civil war. Both that instance and the current instance of "collective punishment" would seem to attract the same sorts of criticisms.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GePap


Actually, sorry, this statement is so absurd, its beyond roll eyes...

It's very simple dumdum, a state of war exists between the Hamas led PA and Israel, declaration or not, just as a state of war existed between the United States and Japan even before the formal declaration was delivered. Collective punishment is an absurd description of what is going on, this is war not an occupation. Hence the constant rocketry aimed at Israeli civilians. In war the enemy's economy and the infrastructure that supports it are fair game.

Originally posted by GePap
HOw many governments would accept regular air raids against them before a military response?

How often have the Israelis attacked the PA without provocation?

Originally posted by GePap
Apparantly you would.

And with this non-sequitor the stupidity peaks.

Originally posted by GePap

What does that have to do with strikes at civilian infrastructure?

It's another of the regular acts of war propogated by the Palestinians. They elected the war party to power, and that party has not disappointed. Now Israel isn't playing into the fiction that a state of war does not exist. It does, and the Pals are going to pay for it.

[notyoueither]

But Sikander, don't you know that is unfair?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by notyoueither
But Sikander, don't you know that is unfair?

Unfairness / disproportionality is the nature of war. True humanitarians realize that a "fair" war full of proportionate action will drag on forever, greatly increasing the body count and even more greatly increasing the moral damage done to the combatants and general citizenry. Think about how things were in the occupied territories after 1967 and how things stand now in those same areas.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


So if A Republican slaps me, I can claim Bush is responsible?

With half the country if it rains on their day off, Bush is held responsible.