Israeli aircraft strike Palestinian PM’s office

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Geronimo
I think it's sending exactly the wrong message when the israeli's respond so much more robustly and aggressively to the capture of an on duty soldier in uniform than they do to the terrorist massacres of israeli civilians.

It's insane. Unless the isreali government really does prefer in some perverse way that the pals attack civilians rather than it's soldiers in uniform.

Yeah, that is the strange part in all of this. It isn't a suicide bomb in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv that is resulting in this, but a kidnapping of a solider?!

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Yeah, that is the strange part in all of this. It isn't a suicide bomb in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv that is resulting in this, but a kidnapping of a solider?!

right. It's almost like the israelis are adopting the pals approach to conflict. The palestinians often ignore the deaths of palestinian civilians but any time the israelis kill one of their leaders or active members they immediately and loudly vow to exact terrible revenge.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
So collective punishment of the Palestinians because one Israeli soldier was kidnapped is justified? If they did this every time an Israeli died...

This is different. The goverment of "Palestine" is directly responsible for this kidnapping.

That has never happened before, not really.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Admiral
And again Israel blows its chance to make transform a terrorist group into a legitimate political organization. It's like Israel is consciously trying to ignore all the lessons from Ireland.

North Ireland wanted independance, not to commit genodice against the British.

Hamass will never transform into a legitimate goverment, their entire goal is to destroy Israel.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Vesayen


This is different. The goverment of "Palestine" is directly responsible for this kidnapping.

That has never happened before, not really.

but the government of Israel has been directly responsible for thousands acts against the palestinians that are at least as noxious as the kidnapping of a soldier.

Aren't such actions actually considered more legitimate when undertaken by a government than when undertaken by a private organization?

The palestinian government has captured an israeli soldier during a cease fire or truce of sorts between the two governments and was issuing demands for the soldiers return.

A hostile action surely but far less hostile than such actions by the israelis as the construction of the west bank wall or demolition of the homes of relatives of terrorists.

Israel should respond less harshly to this sort of action than it does to attacks on civilians and it should allow for negotiations in the face of such attacks on the IDF by the palestinians even though it should not allow for negotiations in the face of attacks on civilians.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Vesayen



North Ireland wanted independance, not to commit genodice against the British.

Hamass will never transform into a legitimate goverment, their entire goal is to destroy Israel.

sort of. goals change. it's an organization and organizations are squishy. Look how much the soviet union changed in it's last years. it changed so much it was no longer even able to continue to exist in it's final form.

Hamas could have decided it gained more political and diplomatic capital with attacks on the IDF than with attacks on civilians. That alone would have been an improvement. Fat chance of that now given the disparity of israels response to this capture in comparison to attacks on civilians.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Geronimo


but the government of Israel has been directly responsible for thousands acts against the palestinians that are at least as noxious as the kidnapping of a soldier.

So these make the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier in Israel, by the palestinian goverment, legitimate?

Aren't such actions actually considered more legitimate when undertaken by a government than when undertaken by a private organization?

Irrelevant to this action. The Hamass goverment kidnapped an Israeli soldier.

The palestinian government has captured an israeli soldier during a cease fire or truce of sorts between the two governments and was issuing demands for the soldiers return.

Hamass has agreed to no cease fire or truce, Hamass refuses to make any sort of statement even accepting Israel's right to exist(even though Machmud Abass, the PM of the Palestinians has been trying to get it done-they refuse to). There is no peace treaty and no truce.

A hostile action surely but far less hostile than such actions by the israelis as the construction of the west bank wall or demolition of the homes of relatives of terrorists.

Have you seen the west bank wall, even in a picture? I was in Israel a few months ago and I mistook it for a wall on the side of American highways in suburbia, you know the ones which block sounds from bothering nearby houses? I love telling this story because its true. I was on my way from the airport to my famillies house and when we passed the wall on the side of the highway.... I saw a wall on the side of the highway and said "Hey, where is the "wall" I have heard so much about in the news?" My relative laughed and said I was looking at it.

These are not hell holes with 40 foot trenches on each side, gun towers and snipers which shoot anyone who even touches the wall.

I have a harder time justifying the destruction of the homes of terrorists but really there is a rational argument for it. You can not retaliate against a suicide bomber, he is dead. You can however see his familly is homeless-this may dissuade them from murdering Israelis.

Neither of these actions really have any effect on what Hamass did though. Hamass has done an act of war, Israel is responding in turn. If you are a scrawny ##### and you kick a NFL player in the sweet spot, you should expect to get pummeled. Israel is far, far stronger then "Palestine". This does not negate their ability to respond to hostile acts.

I would not say things have "stopped" in the last year but it seems that on the whole(this is my perception, I could definatley be mistaken) less suicide bombings and also less Israeli retaliations.

The wall is what the previous Palestinian goverment gets for refusing to negotiate realistic borders.

Israel should respond less harshly to this sort of action than it does to attacks on civilians and it should allow for negotiations in the face of such attacks on the IDF by the palestinians even though it should not allow for negotiations in the face of attacks on civilians.

What should Israel do then? Do you realize that Hamass is firmly dedicated to the goal of DESTROYING Israel? They will not even say an utterly empty phrase such as "We acknowledge the right of Israel to exist".

How do you negotiate peace with someone who does not recognize your right to life?

Really it sucks to be a Palestinian, they have no one to represent their interests.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Geronimo


sort of. goals change. it's an organization and organizations are squishy. Look how much the soviet union changed in it's last years. it changed so much it was no longer even able to continue to exist in it's final form.

Hamas could have decided it gained more political and diplomatic capital with attacks on the IDF than with attacks on civilians. That alone would have been an improvement. Fat chance of that now given the disparity of israels response to this capture in comparison to attacks on civilians.

Hamass has for months refused to make a statement that Israel has a right to exist, despite the best efforts of the Palestinian prime minister.

You are saying "Well you can never know the future!" Your correct. However you can make logical guesses about the future and there is absolutley NO REASON to think that Hamass would ever be less genocidal.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Vesayen
So these make the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier in Israel, by the palestinian goverment, legitimate?

Maybe not, but how is taking out power to the entire West Bank a legitimate response.

Hamass has agreed to no cease fire or truce, Hamass refuses to make any sort of statement even accepting Israel's right to exist(even though Machmud Abass, the PM of the Palestinians has been trying to get it done-they refuse to). There is no peace treaty and no truce.

There had been an informal truce honored by Hamas for over a year. Israel, of course, refused to acknowledge this and kept trying to kill them and drive them out of power.

Have you seen the west bank wall, even in a picture? I was in Israel a few months ago and I mistook it for a wall on the side of American highways in suburbia, you know the ones which block sounds from bothering nearby houses? I love telling this story because its true. I was on my way from the airport to my famillies house and when we passed the wall on the side of the highway.... I saw a wall on the side of the highway and said "Hey, where is the "wall" I have heard so much about in the news?" My relative laughed and said I was looking at it.

Yeah, and it kinda sucks if your village's fields happen to be on the wrong side of it Heck, it could be a line in the sand, if it's enforced it doesn't have to be impressive to be effective.

I have a harder time justifying the destruction of the homes of terrorists but really there is a rational argument for it. You can not retaliate against a suicide bomber, he is dead. You can however see his familly is homeless-this may dissuade them from murdering Israelis.

Or enrage them, and give them nothing left to lose so that all his brothers decide to follow him

Neither of these actions really have any effect on what Hamass did though. Hamass has done an act of war, Israel is responding in turn. If you are a scrawny ##### and you kick a NFL player in the sweet spot, you should expect to get pummeled. Israel is far, far stronger then "Palestine". This does not negate their ability to respond to hostile acts.

If India and Pakistan went to war every time one or the other did something in Kashmir, we'd have seen a nuclear war already . The presence of a casus belli doesn't magically mean war is a good idea.

What should Israel do then? Do you realize that Hamass is firmly dedicated to the goal of DESTROYING Israel? They will not even say an utterly empty phrase such as "We acknowledge the right of Israel to exist".

Do you realize such categorical statements about Hamas's intentions are anti-Palestinian propaganda? Israel hasn't attempted to get them to moderate this position in a reasonable manner. They've tryed to bully them, and that just will never work because if Hamas gives in to that sort of tactics it will lose a lot of face.

How do you negotiate peace with someone who does not recognize your right to life?

Pragmatically.

Hamass has for months refused to make a statement that Israel has a right to exist, despite the best efforts of the Palestinian prime minister.

You are saying "Well you can never know the future!" Your correct. However you can make logical guesses about the future and there is absolutley NO REASON to think that Hamass would ever be less genocidal.

Of course not. Israel will never allow it. Bullying tactics will always have the opposite effect.

[General Ludd]

Do you even understand what genocide means, Vesayen? You are trivializing a word that has enormous implications

[Vesayen]

I am not saying Israel does no wrong by the way, nor can I defend all of Israel's policies. No state is perfect and Israel is not perfect... I want to preface my post by saying that. Every state however, tries to do its best for itself and its citizens. People on this forum expect a degree of magnonimity from Israel which is unrealistic to expect from ANY state when confronted from a threat, whether they have any stake in causing that threat or not.

Maybe not, but how is taking out power to the entire West Bank a legitimate response.

There had been an informal truce honored by Hamas for over a year. Israel, of course, refused to acknowledge this and kept trying to kill them and drive them out of power.

No it has not. Hamass has shelled Israeli housing, buisnesses, the very "power plant" which was supposedly destroyed(it was a transition station) and had suicide bombings.

The #s have decreased and the reprisals from Israel decreased as well, but it never stopped.

Yeah, and it kinda sucks if your village's fields happen to be on the wrong side of it Heck, it could be a line in the sand, if it's enforced it doesn't have to be impressive to be effective.

My heart goes out the Palestinians(really). No one in the world wants to do well by them. However Israel has to do well by Israel before it does well by the Palestinian people.

Or enrage them, and give them nothing left to lose so that all his brothers decide to follow him

There is supposedly evidence that the practice of bulldozing the homes of Palestinian suicide bombers works. I've never seen the evidence, I concede it is questionable... but then again, the Israeli goverment would not do it unless they thought it actually worked-they really do it for one reason, they want to stop suicide bombers.

If India and Pakistan went to war every time one or the other did something in Kashmir, we'd have seen a nuclear war already . The presence of a casus belli doesn't magically mean war is a good idea.

And if Hamass had a nuke, they'd take Israel to hell with them.

A casus belli does not magically mean war is a good idea. I do not know if this is really a war, but Israeli response was justifiable.

Do you realize such categorical statements about Hamas's intentions are anti-Palestinian propaganda?

No it is not. Hamass refuses to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. You start from there. There is no negotiation till the other side acknowledges your right to live.

Israel hasn't attempted to get them to moderate this position in a reasonable manner. They've tryed to bully them, and that just will never work because if Hamas gives in to that sort of tactics it will lose a lot of face.

Hamass is a terrorist organization in the CIA fact book. I don't think you fully apreciate who precisley Hamass are. If you compared these people to the IRA, you would be slandering the IRA severley.

Pragmatically.

No, because if your enemy refuses to acknowledge your right to exist, you have nothing left to say to each other.

Of course not. Israel will never allow it. Bullying tactics will always have the opposite effect.

The fact remains there is absolutley no reason to think Hamass will ever stop being genocidal Islamic fundamentalist and substantial reason to think that they will continue to do so.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Do you even understand what genocide means, Vesayen? You are trivializing a word that has enormous implications

One of the stated goal of Hamass is to destroy the state of Israel and kill Jews, wherever they may be.

Hamass wants to wipe out Jews world wide. They are just busy in Israel at the moment.

[Hueij]

Maybe the Palestinians will get the message that if they elect a goverment which tries to destroy Israel, that Israel won't be so happy about that.

Did you ever asked yourself why the Palestinians voted Hamas? That it might have something to do with the incompetence of the former government and with the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in general?

[Barnabas]

Would hamass want to kill jews, if the jewish state were located somewhere else?

I dont think their main goal is to eliminate all jews on earth, their goal is to destroy Israel, because they think the land of Israel belongs to them.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Hueij

Maybe the Palestinians will get the message that if they elect a goverment which tries to destroy Israel, that Israel won't be so happy about that.

Did you ever asked yourself why the Palestinians voted Hamas? That it might have something to do with the incompetence of the former government and with the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in general?

Does not matter. Hamass refuses to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. How can Israel negotiate with people who hold such a position?

Israel had enough trouble negotiating with Arafats goverment who only wanted the explicit destruction of Israel instead of implicit.

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Would hamass want to kill jews, if the jewish state were located somewhere else?

I dont think their main goal is to eliminate all jews on earth, their goal is to destroy Israel, because they think the land of Israel belongs to them.

They want to destroy the state of Israel. They want to kill all Jews in Israel. They want to kill Jews elsewhere as well.