The Democrats do something...intelligent?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


This is a Good Thing.

[Kuciwalker]

The only reason we have the minimum wage is because we believe society is obligated to give people a certain minimum standard of living, since we can. The minimum wage is an idiotic, ineffective and inefficient means to that end.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The only reason we have the minimum wage is because we believe society is obligated to give people a certain minimum standard of living, since we can. The minimum wage is an idiotic, ineffective and inefficient means of accomplishing this.

No, the minimum wage exists to make sure we don;t have too many poor, who might get revolutionary ideas and sweep aside and burn the houses of people who are rich in order to redistribute the wealth in a far more direct way, because were are trapped by the notion that the only redeaming way towards life is work.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
Well, from your point of view, given you espouse the notion that there are individuals who are net sinks of value, wouldn't it?

1) There are obviously net sinks of value. If there weren't, where's the extra go? Mars?

2) I don't see how you could possibly interpret my position as supportive of state-run enterprises.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Meanwhile, getting back on topic

Here's what Russ Feingold, 2008 Democratic Vice Presidential Nominee, says in his DailyKos diary:

Something I didn't get a chance to mention on Meet the Press on Sunday is the back door pay raise for members of Congress. It may not be the biggest issue facing us as a nation, but it's something that's always bugged me, and it may come up in the Senate soon. This issue is symbolic to me of how out of touch and insulated some elected officials in Washington are from the problems that regular Americans face.

As a lot of you know, Congress has a pay raise system set up that anyone would love to have. Unless they vote to stop their own pay raise, members of Congress get it automatically, without lifting a finger. Next January, unless it is stopped, every member of Congress is scheduled to get a $3,300 pay raise.

This system is just plain wrong, and I've proposed legislation to put an end to it. I've also tried to at least put the Senate on record, forcing a roll call vote on the pay raise. In several years during the 1990s, Congress actually voted to forego the automatic pay raise, but more recently, there haven't been enough votes to block it. Last year, we actually succeeded in blocking the pay raise in the Senate, only to lose when congressional leadership stripped the provision from the final version of an appropriations bill

For myself, I only take a raise when I get reelected, because that's as close as I can get to my boss - the people of Wisconsin - telling me I'm doing a good job. It is also consistent with the 27th Amendment to the Constitution, which says: "No law, varying the compensation for the services of the senators and representatives, shall take effect, until an election of representatives shall have intervened."

Allowing automatic, stealth pay raises for members of Congress is never o.k., but especially right now, with massive deficits and the enormous cost of the Iraq war, giving ourselves a $3,300 stealth pay raise is outrageous.

How many Americans get an automatic raise, no matter how well - or how poorly - they have done their jobs? I'm not sure a lot of members of Congress are prepared for the annual review they would get right now from the American people. We've got no deadline to get the troops out of Iraq, no progress on health care reform, and no serious debate about energy independence. It's safe to say that this would be a tough year to ask for a raise. And that's the point - members of Congress don't have to ask for a raise like everyone else does. They just get a stealth, back-door pay raise instead. But that's unacceptable. If members are going to have the extraordinary power to give themselves a raise, they should have to vote on it, as a part of the public record, for everyone to see.

So look for this issue to be brought up in the Senate, and we'll see where members stand this year on the stealth pay raise, with so many hard-working people around the country - who could never hope to get an automatic raise -- watching this debate. One thing I can guarantee you is that I will keep raising this issue, as I have for so many years, because it is such a powerful reminder of our accountability to the people we serve.

American workers are going to see this and its going to do the Democrats well, whether you agree with the overall principle (which I do) or not.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
No, the minimum wage exists to make sure we don;t have too many poor, who might get revolutionary ideas and sweep aside and burn the houses of people who are rich in order to redistribute the wealth in a far more direct way,

Same thing. We want to ensure a minimum standard of living. The minimum wage is a stupid way of going about it.

because were are trapped by the notion that the only redeaming way towards life is work.

Go look at societies where the amount consumed had/has no relation to the amount produced... someone has to produce value for these people to consume it.

[Dinner]

I note that the Congress already gave themselves a huge, fat raise this year. So what has Congress done to deserve this raise? Have they dealt with our health care crisis? Solved the illegal immigration problem? Streamlined the legal immigration process? Investigated the tens if not hundreds of billions of waste, fraud, and abuse in military contracts? Set up guidelines to protect citizens against illegal wire taps or government fishing in phone & bank records of citizens? Moved CAFE standards higher to cut our dependency on Arab oil? Ended tax credits which encourage corporations to move factories to China? Done anything to improve our piss poor education system?

Nope, none of that. Instead they've debated a Constitutional Amendment to ban burning of the flag, another Constitutional Amendment to prevent gays from having equal rights, and we can't forget that they spent weeks trying to prevent the brain dead Terry Shiavo from having her artificial life support turned off. Oh, yeah... They also gave yet another windfall to heirs of people who have a net worth of more then $60 million by virtually eliminating the enheritance tax.

Yep, Congress has been spending its time on the issues most Americans care about.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


1) There are obviously net sinks of value. If there weren't, where's the extra go? Mars?

This depends on your definition of value.

2) I don't see how you could possibly interpret my position as supportive of state-run enterprises.

More direct than giving them aid from the public tax receipts.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Same thing. We want to ensure a minimum standard of living. The minimum wage is a stupid way of going about it.

Seems to work. I thought the conservative mindset was slow change based on what has worked in the past. That every single major industrialized state has adopted minimum wage laws seems to speak in their favor, no?

Go look at societies where the amount consumed had/has no relation to the amount produced... someone has to produce value for these people to consume it.

This is, again, based on your definition of value.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I note that the Congress already gave themselves a huge, fat raise this year.

Congress isn't paid enough even so.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
This depends on your definition of value.

I'm not going to play the semantics game here. It's fairly obvious what I mean when I use the word, even if it can't really be defined formally.

More direct than giving them aid from the public tax receipts.

Since when does direct equal good?

(Good, btw, equals efficient - both in its own administration and in its effects on the organization of the economy.)

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I note that the Congress already gave themselves a huge, fat raise this year.

I think the best thing for workers is to take away all of Congress' pay raises and institute universal health care... though it may not be enough to cover it. I'm sure we can find a war we can dial down to cover the rest .

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
Seems to work.

Actually, it seems to not have been enough of a drag to bring the system down. That speaks towards the resilience and power of other aspects of our economy, not any efficiency in the minimum wage itself.

I thought the conservative mindset was slow change based on what has worked in the past.

Er... so?

That every single major industrialized state has adopted minimum wage laws seems to speak in their favor, no?

No.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Actually, it seems to not have been enough of a drag to bring the system down. That speaks towards the resilience and power of other aspects of our economy, not any efficiency in the minimum wage itself.

Efficiency is a false idol. Too sad the economist have decided that that value supersedes any other values in the modern world.

Er... so?

So since when do you start basing your world view on theories that exist only in paper? I thought that was the great Evil of Liberals, who willingly follow theories built upon nothing bu Reason.

No.

Tough, cause they will only conitnue to spread and grow.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Except for the fact that the minimum wage increase is stupid.

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that what you just said is complete drivel. I suggest looking at the real world facts of what has occured when the minimum wage has increased instead of just looking at the theory they teach in econ 101.

Raise it to high and companies will move operations but most won't make massive changes for modest increases. Infact more often then not we see unemployment actually go down after modest increases.